Decorum
by ryos

OK, I promised I'd do this tonight, so here it is. Unfortunately, I'm exhausted from taking two exams (7 hours' worth  >) and have a pounding headache, so it's missing a few things. Namely, it's missing some documentation and the source code. I'll get these packaged in when I have more time, but for now I'm going to bed. Enjoy. EDIT by brell: В Attachment removed due to a newer version, which can be downloaded from a post by ryos 13.03.2007 (scroll down)

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Re: Decorum
by aquaMat

ryos...I'm very impressed !! I haven't used Decorum yet, but I studied the ReadMe....really impressing. Thanks a lot !!

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Re: Decorum
by Mikee

For what is that actually good? В :-?

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Re: Decorum
by Wingy

I believe its used to switch custom mansion data to original data quickly.

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Re: Decorum
by Mikee

....Hmmm, I understands it not completely.... В :-[

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Re: Decorum
by samskelton

I'm with Mikee, but as we english people say it, I don't get it ;D

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Re: Decorum
by ryos

A couple things to clarify:The program above is an empty template. It won't do anything at all (except produce error dialogs) until you:1) Install one or more custom-graphics mansions and all associated data files inside the application bundle, and2) Configure it with the filename(s) of the mansion(s) you've installed.The included readme provides detailed instructions on how to do this. Once you do these two things, the program will install the mansion and its data files for you whenever you want to play, and then restore the game to its default state when you are done. It's quite convenient.Ideally, developers of custom graphics mansions would ship their mansions and data files all wrapped up in a configured copy of Decorum, so their users never have to worry about it. At least, that was my intent when I wrote it, and so I've designed it with that in mind. One step at a time...

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Re: Decorum
by Mikee

I believe I it understood... i thing.... lol В 

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Re: Decorum
by Freddy

[quote author=ryos link=1172647513/0#6 date=1172724310]... Ideally, developers of custom graphics mansions would ship their mansions and data files all wrapped up in a configured copy of Decorum, so their users never have to worry about it. At least, that was my intent when I wrote it, and so I've designed it with that in mind. One step at a time...[/quote]Interesting idea. Once MM 1.0.8 is out ...

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Re: Decorum
by ryos

...weeks pass...Whew! I almost forgot to do this. Here's the new release I promised in the first thread. The application itself is unchanged, but I've included more documentation and the source code, so this release is a must for developers looking to release their mansions with this tool, but not so much for people who just want to use it.Can someone edit the first post to reflect this? I would have but it seems editing expires after a while.

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Re: Decorum
by brell

[quote author=ryos link=1172647513/0#9 date=1173906413]...weeks pass...Whew! I almost forgot to do this. Here's the new release I promised in the first thread. The application itself is unchanged, but I've included more documentation and the source code, so this release is a must for developers looking to release their mansions with this tool, but not so much for people who just want to use it.Can someone edit the first post to reflect this? I would have but it seems editing expires after a while.[/quote]ryos, do you want me to remove the attached file in the first post and point people to this one?

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Re: Decorum
by Freddy

@ ryos: I have been busy with a lot of other MM-things, but anyway, I am ashamed that I didn't "test" Decorum yet. When it works smoothly, please tell me, I wonder if we, administrators, should be able to include the use of Decorum BEFORE the release of mansions with customisezd graphics, sounds etc. That would be a great help for all players, I think. I am also thinking of this kind of mansions that were released in the past.

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Re: Decorum
by ryos

@Brell: yes please.@Freddy: I must admit that while parts of your post make sense on their own, the gist of what you're trying to say escapes me.  :-[Edit: while I'm still not sure what exactly you're getting at, let me reiterate that Decorum is open source software and you are all free to do with it as you please provided you comply with the (extremely liberal) terms of the BSD license. You don't need to ask permission, just do it.

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Re: Decorum
by Freddy

Okay. New try.There is Decorum. And there are custom Mansions: from the past and in future. I was wondering, for the already released mansions and for the future mansions where the designers did NOT integrate Decorum, if we, administrators could do that. So that ALL mansions with customized graphics etc. are nicely prepared for all players.That was what I was trying to ask. Hope it is clearer now.

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Re: Decorum
by ryos

Oh! Well, no complaint from me. You might want to clear it with the actual designers first, though.And, you'll also hit a documentation-shaped hurdle. I've included a suggested readme in this new release that should be handy as a base for readmes of mansions that use Decorum, but it still needs to be tailored to the specific mansion.And, I don't remember if I mentioned this in any readme, but Decorum works on OS X 10.2 - 10.4 and is a universal binary. Any mansions that use it should be packaged in a disk image for the sake of 10.2, which does not properly unzip applications.

To be or not to be?
by Freddy

That is the question![quote author=Psychotronic link=1171637856/45#46 date=1172204796]... I thought everybody was all excited for the custom graphics. ...[/quote]To have no misunderstandings, this quote is only a small extract out of some talk between joeb and Psychotronic about Dominator. But it feels like a good start to say something about the complex issue around the change of tiles, sprites, backgrounds, sounds and music. Is my list complete?Maybe I first need to say very honest and open that as a designer, I don't think I will do these kinds of changes. The first reason is very simple: I don't have the skills to do it. Except the changes of the backgrounds and the music perhaps. But changing music has other objections as we know. But there is more. I still believe in the original Midnight Mansion game and its possibilities. Orpheus and Whisky Bar were perfect, although small examples to prove that. It is not a secret, because I did already said on the previous boards, that I am not one of the MM-addicts that is asking for sequels, begging for more or other enemies etc. The only thing that I did like to have (and is not to come) is an other kind of "light" with a limited effect like the maps. But to keep things clear, it is not because I am not asking for expansion packs with new enemies etc. or sequels that I am against it. And that I don't like to play mansions with changed "stuff". So far my personal point of view.Much more important is the general point of view. The Midnight Mansion game is changing in a way that not everybody likes. I know that from several emails and personal messages that I got, as administrator. It was not easy to make a good and serious analysis of this complex issue, but here is the result of my "investigation".1° After the release of MM 1.0.8 things will be different, but as joeb already said, the swapping of files before and after playing "changed mansions" does bother players. It is not enough customized now and does often seem to ask too much efforts for a lot of people.2° Second important thing that comes back again and again is: the matter of identification. When Jack stays Jack, the snakes are suddenly in the grass, a vine seems to be a rope and a walking skeleton became a mummy, nothing seems to be wrong. Problems start when players don't recognize any more which enemies and prizes are which and if that new-thing-they-see is a prize or an enemy. Last step in this story was the replacing from Jack by JAC.3° A less important point, but anyway to keep in mind, is that there are forummembers who don't have objections against "changed mansions", but are hoping that it will not only be used for SF-stories "in Space". There are other possibilities enough. It is "only" a matter of imagination.I made three conclusions, which are no more than MY conclusions.A. There are gamefreaks who like playing all kind of games. These people seem to be those who are always interested in all new games and thus also for the "changed mansions" in MM as well. There is a large group of players that is exited about StarCraft, Dominator etc. At the same time there are as well players (like me, but that doesn't matter) for whom Midnight Mansion is their only game. It is a game they like, or sometimes be very addicted to, and are more or less conservative about changes. I have no idea about the size of both groups. But maybe that doesn't matter. As long as there are enough designers to feed both kind of players with new mansions, it feels okay to me. B. In the margin of the combination of the points 1 & 2 there came a question. Designers of "changed mansions", hold your breath. Is it possible to FIRST make a playable unchanged version, BEFORE starting all the changes where is an other public for? (I think that the StarCraft episodes are playable. Dominator and what I saw yet from the Discotheque of Doom look pretty weird.) The purpose is of course that the mansions should be perfectly playable with and without the changes by both groups of players.C. It gives me an idea for the boards as well. It could be good to split the custom mansions area in two categories: changed and unchanged mansions. Just as a service to our forummembers. Since I know that there are two different, but large groups of MM-players, it may be good that they perfectly know what they are starting with. :question Begs for replies I think.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by sherryl199

Hi Freddy -You "took most of the words right out of my mouth" to coin a phrase. I love Jack, not crazy about JAC type changes. I didn't 'grow up' with all the space games so don't have an afinity for them. I am also very worried that all the changes will lead to 1st person shooter type games - what I definitely do NOT want to play and don't want my grandson playing either. I would guess that was some of JoeB's original motivation for games to play with his son. There are a lot of younger players who have different ideas - their creativity is boggling!!! I do think there is room for both - I just hope that the new doesn't overwhelm the old and result in a schism between the creators of the new and old. I can remember the early custom mansions after the origiinal 8 - what an amazing surprise just when we thought MM couldn't get any better! Now look what has happened. I have another concern. There seems to be a fair amount of contention among some MM fans. My guess, from reading their letters, is some old grudges and pet peeves. This is a game with a huge diversity in fans - age, geography, skills - so some differences are to be expected. I am just sensing a lot of it lately. I think these new mansions are not always bringing out the best in everyone. В I may be way off the mark and just sensitive because I don't want MM to change and lose its "innocence" for lack of a better word!BTW - I made a duplicate copy of my MM folder and then left the space sprites set up in one of the copies. So far that works although I have not explored it a great deal. I play the StarCraft episodes with the original MM sprites - works just fine for me and I like the way it looks. It doesn't seem to interfere with the difficulty of the games.So there - my quick thoughts. Thanks for the post. I guess it will illicit some "interesting"??!! responsed.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by aquaMat

Very interesting points you both have made.Even though I know that there are people who do and others who do not love custom graphics, I don't think it is a good idea to "force" the gap (or schism) between those groups (for example by putting their resp. stuff and discussions in two different categories), as I not only think that the two groups can very well exist peacefully next and with each other in the world of MM, but - and that's more important - I strongly believe there are a lot of peoiple out there, who are not so sure if they belong only in one of, or in any of those 2 groups of people.Just take myself as an example (sorry): В I absolutely like MM in its original form, and love designing mansions with the original graphics and trying to work around the limitations of the original tiles and sprites to com e up with something new. On the other hand, I also love and design custom graphics mansions.And some more than others: В I am absolutely no fan of Science Fiction, let alone SciFi-games....so, while I marvel at all the work that has gone into Dominator, I'm not too much of a fan of it, compared to "Mummy's Revenger" or TOTOMBS, which I both think to be fantastic. (But as a designer, I know how fantastic Dominator is....)So, which group am I belonging too ??Please be careful !! В Let us not initiate aversities and "opponent groups" where there are in reality only several different points of view.... as always, BTW. В 

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Re: To be or not to be?
by ryos

Wow. MM fans are certainly a diverse bunch! В :oForgive me if what I have to say sounds offensive, because I don't mean it to be, but I feel like there's only one way to say it and that's the offensive way. Here goes.What are you all worried about? In all the years of fan mods to video games, I have never heard of people actually complaining that a mod (short for modification) modified the base game. Midnight Mansion is not some temple whose purity must be defended. It's a game that people play and enjoy customizing.Now that's off my chest (), I can address your conclusions with civility.1) I agree this is too painful as it stands now. In fact, I feel strongly enough about it that I wrote a utility to take care of the switching for me, every time I play. I've been waiting to share it until I can find the time to design an appropriate icon, but if people want it now and are willing to put up with a space-themed (*gasp* ;D) icon (because it's an adaptation of a utility I wrote for a space-themed game), then I'll post it now.2) I really consider "total conversions" like Dominator as new games. We were all new to MM once, and had to familiarize ourselves with the mechanics. I see no problem with doing the same for a new game that happens to use the MM game engine. If you can let go of the notion that a game engine was built for just one game, a lot of possibilities open up to you as a player and designer.A) Guilty as charged. B) I disagree. If you've ever opened Dominator with the default graphics (which I did once just for kicks), you'll see that the replaced sprites don't map one-to-one to the ones that would be used if the graphics weren't customized. This is asking people, who have already put a huge amount of time into original artwork, to also double their effort on mansion building, since they would have to re-place each and every tile.C) I have no opinion (really!). Do as you will.As a final note, the administrators are always talking about not attempting to limit the creativity of designers, but that (unless my reading comprehension sucks ) is exactly what seems to be going on here. Not every mansion is for everyone; for example, House of Wonders is both way over my head skill-wise and not my cup of tea design-wise, but do you hear me complaining about its existence? I recognize that it's just not for me, and don't seek to limit the enjoyment others may glean from it.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

[quote author=Freddy link=1172409781/0#0 date=1172409781]B. In the margin of the combination of the points 1 & 2 there came a question. Designers of "changed mansions", hold your breath. Is it possible to FIRST make a playable unchanged version, BEFORE starting all the changes where is an other public for? ...[/quote]Absolutely no! It takes the whole idea of custom graphics right out of the mansion!  :o But it would be ok to make a board for custom graphics mansions. (I think the name Changed mansions sounds abit.. against them)[quote author=sherryl199 link=1172409781/0#1 date=1172419699]...What I definitely do NOT want to play and don't want my grandson playing either...[/quote]If you looking at Ted, because he has a gun, doesn't mean its a 1st person shooting game! And the gun doen't have any ammo! He just spins it instead of a yo-yo!Like what ryos said, what are you worried about, Freddy? I'm just trying to make MM a better game with the world of Ted & StarCraft!

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Re: To be or not to be?
by sherryl199

Wingy - I didn't mean Ted was a 'shooter' at all. My point was that there are a lot of games available if one wants a shooter game. One of the huge plusses for me is that MM is not one and suitable for little kids and us big kids.I'm still unsure if there is a downside to making a duplicate copy of MM and installing the custom graphics for a particular game in that copy. At this point I have Dominator in a duplicate so I can switch back and forth between that and the original MM sprites. I had StarCraft in the duplicate but found I can play that series with the original sprites if I'm too lazy to switch - although the SC graphics certainly contribute to the fun!Sherry

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Spiak

As strictly a player (the one mansion I tried to design never got past 8 rooms) I've got to say that I prefer the original mansions and the early custom mansions. Some of the more recent ones have been a major challenge to "get into". But that is just my personal opinion. I like the exploration aspects of the game more than the competitive element. I played Dominator without changing the graphics, and with the exception of some weird looking rooms the only problem I had was the gauntlet. I keep missing the platforms and falling. I don't mean to discourage anyone, but I'd love to see more like MMaM (except not so darn big).Just my 2 cents,Spiak

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Psychotronic

I pretty much completely agree with Ryos, and I'll add this. The Midnight Mansion game isn't going in one direction or another. There's what, four or five custom graphics mansions out of a hundred? We have twice as many active designers as we did a few months ago, and they're all making different kinds of mansions. We should consider ourselves blessed.Wingy and Joe might be making more traditional mansions if the option wasn't there to add new graphics, but then again, they might lose interest. They're just going where the muse takes them, and every player has the choice to play their mansions or not. If they get too far out in left field, maybe people will lose their enthusiasm for the new mansions, and they'll have to get back to basics - and then so be it. I really don't see a problem.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

Thanks for all the replies!Two very important things, to keep things very transparent.1° I was not "worried" at all about what is going on. And didn't say or suggest that, I hope. That was anyway certainly NOT my message in my post when starting this topic. After I saw the interesting talk between joeb and Psychotronic, I only thought, as "administrator", that I did a good job with informing everybody as neutral as possible.2° This issue is also not a matter of black or white. And is of course not a schism. Young Wingy saw the point of my proposal for the boards fastest. That is only a matter of organizing our forums, which is the administrators' responsability as well. But not without democratic consultation over here! When suggesting to make 2 categories for changed and unchanged custom mansions everybody should have THREE choises in future. Sorry, that I didn't explain that some more in my first post. One can not only choose between A OR B, but of course also A AND B. I just thought it would make the life of ALL our MM-addicts of ANY kind more simple. No?

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Re: To be or not to be?
by joeb

Since I seem to be the person who is pointed to and quoted a lot when it comes to custom mansions I guess I need to offer my point of view here. Before I do I will qualify my comments with this. My goal is not to annoy anyone but to offer what may be what I consider contrary, but nonetheless valid positions to several earlier posters. One of them being that I would like to see MM turn into a 1st person shooter. I am and have ALWAYS been a fan of strategy games and quite honestly am bored by sitting there just shooting at things appearing on the screen and Matt wanted to do a space theme. Personally I'd like to on my own do an adventure thru several castles in several different countries almost like a James Bond movie. That said......I know my first analogy here will probably be not taken well and it might be said that it doesn't fit but it most certainly does. "Get a horse" When motorized vehicles first appeared there was a huge outcry against them and a lot of sentiment that they wouldn't last and could never replace the horse. I think everybody can agree on what happened, horseback riding has become a hobby and a sport but not the mainstream for transportation. What is the lesson? You can't stop progress nor should you try cause it's just not going to happen. Has Vern stopped development of MM? No. And what are the latest changes going to be for? Enhanced functionality for custom graphics, as well as a lot of other features.I mentioned in one of my posts that I might do a "standard" mansion just to get rid of the tag of "rebel". Psychotronic hit me square between the eyes with a valid truth. Do I enjoy making standard mansions? Not nearly as much as the custom ones because then it becomes much easier to "theme". I want to do a space theme, fine I do a set of graphics specifically for that. I wanted to do an adventure through the pyramids and the desert. Could I have done that with the standard graphics? Maybe, but the modified graphics REALLY got the look and feel I wanted. Dominator would have been nigh on impossible to get to look like a space adventure without the control panels, droids and other space specific objects. And for TOTOMB I needed jungles and mountains.As far as making more traditional mansions if the option was there, Psychotronic hit the nail right on the head again. I think we would have lost interest. I never liked pigeonholes and when it comes to breaking out of them, yes I AM a rebel. Besides the fun of playing BOTH kinds of mansions and YES we do play both, just got done with This Old Mansion. The ability to play and design both types AND yes we plan on doing a couple of more traditional ones, В is a wonderful option.But now we come the issue that bothers me the most about this situation. Right now 2 of the board administrators have communicated to me that they both like playing and designing standard mansions and their idea of MM was little Jack jumping over spiders. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I'd like to say that again; because your enjoyment of MM comes from that type of game you're not В a bad person and if you enjoy hoping on the horse then do it. That's your choice, but at the same time don't frown on me because I like to drive a Ferrari, or a Hummer or a motorcycle, or a speedboat, etc., etc., etc. В Don't make it difficult to get what I like to do out to others like me. And if there are others out there who get the same enjoyment then why put us (or yourselves) in a pigeonhole. You do custom mansions, that's YOUR board, we do STANDARD, this is our board. What's wrong with having everything in one place and just stating a type? Custom - Traditional. Again quoting from, actually paraphrasing the wisdom of Psychotronic here. If the people don't like your mansions then they won't play them and maybe you should rethink what you're building. Matt and I will continue to build mansions of both types and although for many of you, IT'S JUST A GAME. I'm sorry but for us it's a learning tool. Matt has learned simple physics, logic, sound, music, computer OS basics, graphics.... Why shouldn't we share that? I made a big mistake when I left the board the first time because I felt that the customizations I was doing weren't important to anybody. Email proved I was wrong I have no intention of making the same mistake again. There ARE other people out there interested and there ARE others like Wingy who have some much they'd like to do but don't understand how to get there. I can (and have offered on several occasions) to help him because he's interested in doing what I've been able to.Enough already. The best thing that could happen IMNSHO is to find some who IS interested in customization and allow them to be the Custom administrator. Then there would be no issues in who likes what type of mansion.Joe B

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

So, everything under the sun is in tune and in Midnight Mansion the sun is eclipsed by the moon. Well. Administrators. That is like being the Pope. You don't WANT that. You are being asked for. And once you are, you try to make the best of it.Although I have my personal favourites about mansions - I still don't like Falcon Manor btw - I will NEVER be NOT neutral about launching any mansions. Of any one. So there is certainly nothing to worry about.Reminder!We can not deny that there are mansions WITH and WITHOUT changed "stuff" and that we have customers that like both or only one kind of mansions. I respect all designers AND all players. And I respect them all for a very simple reason. I just like the Midnight Manion game. Including its temparary bugs, including its possibilities to change graphics etc. and including giving me (and Toybox among others) the chance to expose stunning novelties. Each has his/her own interests. MM-life is oh so simple.So, everything under the sun is in tune and in Midnight Mansion the sun is eclipsed by the moon.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by brell

My two ikr (Icelandic kronas) on this: В We are all different people, that, while we all love MM, still have different aspect on the game (is that the right expression here?). В Being players or designers (or both), some of us only want the good old custom mansions while others would prefer experimenting and then there are those who like to do both. В (And btw, there is a lot of experimental stuff that can be done without changing graphics, music etc). В I'm sure all of us have some favourite mansions that they play more often than others. В No harm in that. В And there is no harm in experimenting either. В So my conclusion is: В It is the designer's right to do what they want in their mansions. В And it is the player's right to play them .... or not!And one other point: В I appreciate any comments on my mansions that help me becoming a better mansion builder. В But I reserve the right of not taking any notice from critics that say something like "your mansion(s) suck(s) because there is too much/little of this or that".

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

Well put, brell.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

So tell me Freddy... whats to be or not to be? В And you said that Young Wingy saw the point first... well about that... I'm not that young, I'm a teenager and I'm 5 ft. 4 and I can lift over 50 Kgs! В : Just wanted to let you know... I'm not that good at making long posts... my question is simple.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

Today I realized that there were only 13 minutes between my 2nd post and joeb's. Because of the length of joeb's story, I am pretty sure that he missed mine. And if he would have seen that extra report, I think he wouldn't have been bothering at all about the administrators. Since there is no link at all between this current issue and a probably changed qualification of the organisators of these boards.When going back to my 1st post now, I think it was a very clear and correct report, in which I nowhere said or suggested that I am against the existence of "changed" mansions or prejudiced about them in a certain way. I play them all, btw.The variety of the replies by forummembers proved that what I knew out of PMs and emails was right and so, the issue definitely deserved a place on the boards to talk about. Adding or replacing administrators to avoid issues like these? Sorry, sounds like censorship.To answer teenager Wingy's question ... there is no answer yet about my "green" suggestion. As usual we will listen carefully to everybody and then decide what we best do. Or in this case: not do. And that decision will be like a mansion. It is possible that some people will not like it. In a matter of fact, even this topic is like a mansion. When you don't like it, stay away. There are enough other topics.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

[quote author=ryos link=1172409781/0#3 date=1172427029]... In fact, I feel strongly enough about it that I wrote a utility to take care of the switching for me, every time I play. I've been waiting to share it until I can find the time to design an appropriate icon, but if people want it now ..., then I'll post it now. ...[/quote]Now that everybody knows that this thread is not a poll about pro or contra the use of custom art ... back to business.I am certainly interested in your tool, but I am just wondering if it wouldn't be better to wait untill MM 1.0.8 is released, because I think that your utility will need some changes. Meanwhile, maybe you can explain a little bit more about how it works?

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Re: To be or not to be?
by joeb

I have an opinion. There are many others like it but this one is mine:I feel that custom graphics are currently the black sheep of the administrators. You can post as many long flowery anecdotal responses as you wish but that is my and quite frankly other's opinions.I am blessed with 2 children. My older is going to law school. Considering I never thought, based on her high school performance she would go anywhere. At her birthday party yesterday I apologized for being so wrong in front of the family and told her how proud I was. Her favorite pastime of late is debating politics with me. She plans on being a death penalty lawyer.I spend so much time talking about Matt there is nothing else I can communicate about him other than being a brilliant little boy he has an ADHD dark side which often is difficult to deal with.I work for a major US bank as a senior systems engineer and deal with anywhere from 50 to 200 emails a day designing, developing and supporting complex ETL operations. Occasionally I have to travel to Minneapolis for the job, or Atlanta, or Des Moines, or San Francisco, or.......I have a Dodge SRT-4 which I race on weekends and I bowl in 2 leagues. I have a small consulting business which I use to pay for my racing habit. I'm also a 4th degree Black Belt and teach Iai, Issyn Rhyu karate and am in the World Karate Hall of Fame for Kendo. I volunteered over 400 hours last year for Habitat for Humanity, Battered Womens Shelters and for fun I'm the Asst. Chairman for Fiesta Bowl Parade Marshals.In my spare time I play ONE GAME. Midnight Mansion, period. I also find time to put mansions together and like everything else I do I put my best efforts into it.SO,I will continue to build and play mansions. I will continue to answer questions when I can and ask them when I need an answer. When I'm done with a mansion I will send it to the board. If the mansion gets posted that's great. If it doesn't and anybody wants it they can request it directly from me at jbanko@cox.net. But I WILL NOT continue what I consider pointless conversations because I do have a life outside of Midnight Mansion and I am wasting time responding to this kind of silliness. It makes no sense to go back and pull items out of context just to prove some silly little point. The fact of the responses themselves is proof enough of the opinions.Joe B

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Re: To be or not to be?
by brell

I am sorry if you take it that we are against custom graphics, Joe. В This thread was created for discussion about pros and cons of normal vs. custom graphics and the opinion of the players and designers. В In my small post above I cannot find any evidence that I am against custom graphics in any way. В This thread is in no way intended as a debate against custom graphice designers, which have put much effort into their work, often with stunning results.Now we all know that some players just love these custom graphic/music mansions, while others find it difficult to cope with (some of) the changes. В Like there was someone complaining about the mask of Jack in Wingy's Star Craft episodes, because his or her old eyes had troubles following the new Jack around the screen. В It is also, for some of the older people, a question of enough contrast between different tiles and sprites vs. tiles.So as I said before: В Designers, design at your free will but don't expect everyone to like all your mansions. В Players, play at your free will but don't expect every mansion to fit your MM needs.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by ryos

[quote author=Freddy link=1172409781/15#15 date=1172500725][quote author=ryos link=1172409781/0#3 date=1172427029]... In fact, I feel strongly enough about it that I wrote a utility to take care of the switching for me, every time I play. I've been waiting to share it until I can find the time to design an appropriate icon, but if people want it now ..., then I'll post it now. ...[/quote]Now that everybody knows that this thread is not a poll about pro or contra the use of custom art ... back to business.I am certainly interested in your tool, but I am just wondering if it wouldn't be better to wait untill MM 1.0.8 is released, because I think that your utility will need some changes. Meanwhile, maybe you can explain a little bit more about how it works?[/quote]I doubt I'll need to change a thing, unless Vern decides to rename the Custom Mansions and Game Data folders. The tool (let's call it by its name, that will be easier: Decorum) just looks in Game Data and all of its subfolders for files whose names match those of the customized versions, kept in a folder inside the program's bundle. It then moves those MM default files into a holding directory, also inside the bundle, and puts the customized variants in their place.It also installs the mansion file, and launches Midnight Mansion. This all happens when you press a button. Push a different button, and the whole process is reversed.It basically just takes the "manual" out of "manual file swapping."

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Freddy

Under extremely difficult circumstances I did release Dominator asap. You know me long enough to be sure that I really couldn't do a final walkthrough at that time, although I wanted to.And I am beta-testing aquaMat's Discotheque of Doom that has custom graphics as well!Black sheep? Where is your point, Joe?

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Scout

there was someone complaining about the mask of Jack in Wingy's Star Craft episodes, because his or her old eyes had troubles following the new Jack around the screen.Brell, that was me. (And I'm a 'her'). It wasn't a complaint, but an observation that was meant to be helpful to the designer. (Wingy, I think it was). I certainly hope he was not offended by my input; I would think that would be something that designers would want to know.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Psychotronic

Why do I feel like 90% of this conversation is not actually happening in this thread? Guys, if there's something happening primarily in emails and PMs, let's not drag it onto the boards. It just poisons the waters and makes innocent bystanders nervous. I think most of us are happy just playing the mansions we're interested in and ignoring the ones we're not, and occasionally expressing our opinions about it. I don't see a need for any re-organization of the boards. We're doing fine dealing with individual issues as they come up.This thread, on the other hand, is not fine, because it's crossed the line into personal territory. I don't know or care whether the line was crossed here or behind the scenes, but it's not cool, and it's not appropriate for the Midnight Mansion forums. If you have to press the issue, do it by PM or email. Like most of the regulars here, I'll bet, I like to be able to read any thread on the forums without encountering a lot of tension or conflict, and part of the administrators' job should be to lock any thread that is no longer civil, for the good of the boards as a whole.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by VernJensen

[quote author=Psychotronic link=1172409781/15#21 date=1172514574]Why do I feel like 90% of this conversation is not actually happening in this thread? Guys, if there's something happening primarily in emails and PMs, let's not drag it onto the boards. It just poisons the waters and makes innocent bystanders nervous. I think most of us are happy just playing the mansions we're interested in and ignoring the ones we're not, and occasionally expressing our opinions about it. I don't see a need for any re-organization of the boards. We're doing fine dealing with individual issues as they come up..[/quote]Agreed. I think it *would* be nice to have the description for a mansion mention if it has custom graphics, or if it is a "total replacement" that requires you to move files around, so downloaders know what they're downloading. But that would only be a nice convenience to have, and nothing else is necessary.[quote author=Psychotronic link=1172409781/15#21 date=1172514574]This thread, on the other hand, is not fine, because it's crossed the line into personal territory. I don't know or care whether the line was crossed here or behind the scenes, but it's not cool, and it's not appropriate for the Midnight Mansion forums. If you have to press the issue, do it by PM or email. Like most of the regulars here, I'll bet, I like to be able to read any thread on the forums without encountering a lot of tension or conflict, and part of the administrators' job should be to lock any thread that is no longer civil, for the good of the boards as a whole.[/quote]Yes, let's try to keep this board friendly. Life's too short to get into arguments about games. :-)Everyone please try to remember to be nice, especially to mansion designers who have put a lot of work into their mansions. That doesn't mean you can't offer "constructive criticism" but do try to avoid "I hate this" kind of comments. If you hate something, simply don't play it. ;-)Thanks for the comments, Psychotronic. Let's end this thread here, and get back to friendly discussions about how to make mansions, etc.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by aquaMat

See what happened.Y'all have probably not read my post above, which was the second or third in this thread, where I said:Please be careful !! В  Let us not initiate aversities and "opponent groups" where there are in reality only several different points of view So I agree with Psychotronic, everybody please cool it...!!And to Joe B. ....don't be fooled into thinking any of this discussion was against you, if you look on the (inofficial) polls we held a couple weeks ago, somewhere else on this forum, you'll notice that almost everybody named Mummy's and TOTOMBS among their top ten fave mansions, including myself, brell and God knows who. (That was before the release of Dominator).I am a huge fan of TOTOMBS and Mummy's, and the only reason Dominator is clocking in at the third place is that I'm not too much into SciFi. В So please....continue making those wonderful mansions....

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Semi-Native

Well, this is my first day back after being in Jamaica for a week, and I've been trying to catch up with all the posts. Not an easy task! В 8-)I have to say that I've been a little worried lately, too, that MM was eventually going to change into a space themed, shooter type game. Or if not exactly a shooter, that it would become more complicated with picking up different tools and having to remember more keys to do different tasks.This post has set my mind at ease, I feel that MM will remain true to its original look and feel for those of us that want it that way. I sure hope so, anyway. I don't always switch the files to use the custom graphics, sometimes it's just too much trouble. When I saw the instructions for Dominator, it was just too much to read for now. Maybe in a couple days, after I get back in my routine. But I do think the custom graphics are awesome, and I appreciate all the hard work and creativity that goes into them.So don't flame me, I think there's room for everybody. I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents worth. 8-)

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

Oook... so what is this getting to? В  :-? Anyways... Vern, why don't you make it so you can add a SND resource in the mansion file and I.D.s for graphics to work so you don't have to move around files that much? В :o

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Psychotronic

Wingy, Vern has already added sprite replacement to the next update.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

@Psycho: I KNOW!!! @Vern: But what about sounds and graphics!? В :o

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Psychotronic

What do you mean by graphics? Backgrounds?

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

I mean like, for example, the inventory and stuff! Not the backgrounds.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by joeb

The inventory items are in the Midnight Mansion Graphics file.

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Re: To be or not to be?
by Wingy

........ I know! :o I said that!  :o *sigh*

Custom graphics: custom characters
by aquaMat

@Vern and everybody who knows about custon graphics:Currently I'm trying to create a few additional custom "characters", well actually they're not moving, just standing around, much like those angels and knights in the original graphics.But I'm having a few problems with it.I understand that it is not absolutely necessary to stick to the original shape if I want to replace an old graphic with a new one - (>>see Wingy's new levers as an example).... so I tried to change the knight into a dancer for my Discotheque.What is needed for it to be drawn properly in the game? В I understand, it must have an "outer shape" В (lining) that is black, but are there other limitations, like max. size etc. (= How different can the new graphic be from the one it nreplaces ??).Any tips ??(e.g. I had problems with the bell-bottom pants of my dancer.... they were not drawn properly.... even if the pict looked good!)

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by VernJensen

That'd be hard for me to answer without looking at the game's source and experimenting, but I think for images where you have a single static frame stored in a single picture, you should be able to replace it with a new image of any size you want.For other things, like levers or monsters, where there are multiple frames in a single picture, I think you may need to stick to the original size for it to work right.-Vern

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by joeb

Yes, you can make static graphics pretty much any size but if you want them to line up correctly with one another you may have to include a white space in front of them and do some careful width planning. For instance, I have electronic gates (non functioning, just for looks) that have attached walls. To get the walls to connect properly I had to move the wall graphic 10 pixels to the right to get it to line up correctly on the left. To get it to line up correctly on the right you have to play with the graphic width. When I post Dominator you can take a look at the resources to see what I mean.If you're going to play with animation graphics there's a whole other issue. Some of the animations don't seem to run left to right. You'll have 2 frames that are for left and right static views and then you'll have a certain number of frames run left to right top to bottom for the left facing animation but the right facing animation needs the same number of frames but goes right to left. I think the rising skeleton is setup like that. I know I had to play around to get it right.HTH,Joe B

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by aquaMat

Thanks for that info, Joe.I've only seen this AFTER I replied to your "Hello-Thread", where I welcomed you (back) and have asked a similar question like the one above.  BTW: It was your wonderful Mummy's Revenge and TOTOMBS that inspired me to try my hand at custom graphics...even though my attempts will always remain pale in comparison, as I am not talented in drawing or painting, so I mainly modifiy a few things to suit my mansion's theme... В Of course I'd really love to make a mansion like Mummy's, which feels like a complete different game (!!), but considering how long I need even for my small bits of custom graphics, I'm sure I won't have the time (and talent) to manage a complete "new world".

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by joeb

I can't really claim that that artwork was mine only. Just about everything in MR and TOTOMBS was modified artwork from the web. When I came up with the ideas for those 2 mansions I went out on the internet and looked up Egypt, South American jungles, plants,etc. В and used Photoshop to do post work to craft the graphics to fit my needs. Basically the same thing you talk about doing. And Matt and I started exactly the same way. Tweak the graphics that came with MM until you get a good feel for how you need to make things work and build on that. I still haven't found my tutorial on custom graphics but would ask that anyone who happened to pick it up repost it here on the forums. I spent a lot of time on the geometries and I know they'd give you a higher comfort level.It's become a lot easier to get exactly what I want now with DS (Daz Studio). I go to one of the companion sites, Renderosity or Content Paradise as a starting place. There are links that go from those sites to find just about anything you'd want. If you invest some time and effort in learning DS it's a great tool for getting the core graphics. I found a terrific site with all kinds of Star Wars objects, all free. I would have used some of them but didn't want to run into any copyright issues with Lucas Arts. I've got just about every ship including the superstar destroyer (EP5) and the Death Star. Lightsabres from every character and a complete Darth Vader suit that fits perfectly on one of the free DAZ models.Since I've been so into it I've compiled ten's of thousands of objects so let me know if you're looking for anything in particular and I'll see if I have a model of it. Right now I'm playing around with a plug-in called Particles which I'm going to use to re-do the lava and acid animations. Someone (brell, Wingy) made an accurate observation about the color of the acid in MR being confused with water so I'll probably do a neon pink or purple new version of it. I've also used it to generate smoke and broken parts flying off JAC when he dies. There are also some cool dying graphics on the probe droids which look like the Dark Side of The Force electricity that the emperor shots out of his hands.Wow, I CAN get long winded. But feel free to drop me a line about any graphics you might be thinking of and I'll see if I can get you (or anyone else for that matter) pointed in the right direction.Later,Joe B

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by Mikee

Hey,How would it be in the version 1.0.8 with new music? Greet Mikee В 

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by samskelton

You know mikee, it is possible to add your own tunes in MM. That's what I'm doing for my mansion, Church.1. Get music file2. name it Background Music 5 or 6 or whatever number you're on.3.open up game data folder4.Drop your music file(s) into there.5. Add your new music number in the custom mansion (ex.- if you made Background Music 7, you'd put in the number 7 to play that music) 8-)

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by aquaMat

I cannot stress it often enough .... so I'm doing it one last timelease keep the copyright issue in mind when you're planning to include music files with your custom mansions.

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by samskelton

rigght...

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by joeb

But when you write your own music the copyright issue goes away. I worry a little more about sounds and graphics. A couple of my new critters (sprites) are В VERY close to Star Wars content. But I really think LucasArts has MUCH bigger fish to fry than me.I'm finishing up the dilithium processing plant in Dominator and although I think it would be a pretty good entry for the contest I've decided not to participate with it. BUT, Jack's sister?????? Hmmmmmm, the wheels are turning......Joe

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by Mikee

Hey Nice Idea samskeleton! Great Music now В thus it lives itself better! В 

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by samskelton

If you do some strange theme music (like the twilight zone) I dont think that counts as being copyrighted because the guy who did the original version is dead.(If there is an original version... )

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by aquaMat

Sam,I'm afraid it isn't that easy. В First of all, a composer has to be dead for more than 70 years (European law; in the US it could be 50 years) and then his works might become public domain. In other cases the works (original recordings) have to be made 50 years or more ago.... so any recordings from 1957 onward do not apply at all.Also, often copyrights are renewed, and go over to the estate of a deceased composer etc. .... so it's definitely not as straightforward as you might imagine (I'm sorry to say).

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by Freddy

It is even more complicated than that. The composer's death is one thing. But although e.g. Bach is dead for a very long time, the performers have rights as well.There is only one safe solution for MM: making music yourself. Sorry, Sam.

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by Wingy

[quote author=aquaMat link=1169987947/0#12 date=1171232382]Sam,I'm afraid it isn't that easy.  First of all, a composer has to be dead for more than 70 years (European law; in the US it could be 50 years) and then his works might become public domain. In other cases the works (original recordings) have to be made 50 years or more ago.... so any recordings from 1957 onward do not apply at all.Also, often copyrights are renewed, and go over to the estate of a deceased composer etc. .... so it's definitely not as straightforward as you might imagine (I'm sorry to say).[/quote]What are you, a copyright man? В ;D

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Re: Custom graphics: custom characters
by aquaMat

[quote author=Wingy link=1169987947/0#14 date=1171323752]What are you, a copyright man?  ;D[/quote]No, not at all....... В  but I am a composer, and I know how I would feel if my copyrights were violated !!BTW: I'm not writing this, to put you off, or cause trouble.... but to PREVENT trouble !! В I know that -especially in America- copyright lawsuits can get very expensive..... В and I'm sure we don't want that to happen.

Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

@anybody w/ custom graphics experience:Thanks to brell who hipped me to Rezilla, I am currently experimenting w/ a few custom graphics.However, I have acountered the following problem:According to the new guidelines since version 1.0.6. I included the customised (replaced) resources in my mansion's resource map (as opposed to the 'Midnight Mansion Sprites' resource as was the case in earlier versions).While it worked fine with the first 2 customised resources, all the next ones I did never showed up in the game (or the editor). Has anyone else experienced this problem / behaviour ?(Of course, I have given the resources to be replaced the exact same resouce ID as their respective originals.)Any advice will be gratefully appreciated !!

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

Concerning the above problem (which nobody else seems to have encountered ???), I can now explain what it is...but not why I have realised, the reason why my first 2 custom graphics showed up in the game, and later ones didn't, is because:- the first two were customised TILES, the later ones were SPRITES; so- opposed to what Vern wrote in the ReadMe of 1.0.7. concerning custom graphics, it seems NOT to be possible to replace BOTH, tiles and sprites, by putting them in your mansion's resource map. If one wants to replace SPRITES, you still have to put them in the "Midnight Mansion Sprites" file (and later replace that in Game Data).@Vern: Are you aware of that problem / bug ??  So, unfortunately, when I will be offering you my 'Discotheque' in a few weeks, I will have to include a Sprites file (as it was with Mummy's Revenge).

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by Wingy

I wonder why you're the only person encountering these problemes? В :-? I did some fooling around with tile replacements with a Ted Theme. I made a picture of Ted sitting right on the gray-skull-brick! В ;D Then I made the background a picture of were Ted lives. It worked perfectly for me, with ResEdit and PhotoShop CS. В What I did was:Made a second copy of the Midnight Mansion Sprites.Opened ResEdit,Opened Midnight Mansion Sprites,Opeded the PICT resource,Found the picture with the grey-skull-brick,Selected it, Copied, (Short: Click it once, Command + C)Opened up PhotoShop,Made a new picture, (Short: Command + N)Made the size to "Clipboard,"Pressed ok, then pasted it, (Short: Return, Command + V)Then I got my Ted picture, copyed it and pasted it onto the grey-skull-brick.Takes awhile to do but you can get pretty funny stuff there! В ;D

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

Wingy, that's about the same way I do it.... but that's what I said above:When you do the replacing in the 'Midnight Mansion Sprites' file, it works.... but since 1.0.6. Vern said it was possible to put the custom graphics into your mansion's resource.However, this method works only with tiles not with sprites.And when you check TOTOMBS, which was the first mansion with custom graphics after the update to 1.0.6., and which didn't have an extra 'MM Sprites' file (to be put into Game Data)... when you check TOTOMBS you will realize that its author only changed tiles not sprites !!As I need both, new tiles and new sprites, I'll have to enclose a 'MM Sprites' file with the download, as in earlier versions, I'm afraid.

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by Wingy

Hmmm.... I'm confused. Are you just saying that you made the tiles and put them into the file with the same numbers as the origanal tiles? В :-?

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

That's right.After I have modified a graphic, say - the red block with the cat on it, I do give it the exact same resID it had before, but include the new resource into my masnion's resource file, NOT the MM sprites file.Vern has introduced that feature where the game knows automatically that there is an 'updated' (=modified) resource, and replaces the original one in the Sprites file resource, with the new one (in your mansion's resource).And it works.... but unfortunately it works only with tiles (editor, left side) not with sprites (right side: creatures, doors etc.).But as I understood Vern#s ReadMe of 1.0.6. it was supposed to work with both, tiles and sprites.  

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by Wingy

I read the Readme very carefully when I did it. Even the slightest mistake will screw it all up. Like for example, if you made the name wrong of the new spite fill, like Minight Mansoin Sprites. The "T" is missing. Simple things like that could have occured. В : Try making another copy of the sprites and do it again. В If you still encouter problemes, tell Vern exacly what you did. В 

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by VernJensen

You must be referring to the 1.0.5 release notes:"Changed Mansion Sprites file so that tiles are self-masking, allowing mansion designers to have complete freedom in creating new custom tile graphics for their mansions."Notice this says so that "tiles" are self-masking. You still can't do sprites.I want to add the ability to replace sprite graphics too someday, but that takes work and testing, and adds the possibility for new bugs. As of right now, you can ONLY replace graphics for tiles.

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

@Vern:Thank you very much for clarification, I have misunderstood the portion in the ReadMe to 1.0.6. were both, tiles and sprites, are mentioned. I went back to the ReadMe, and there of course you mention that Sprites are not yet possible. I should have read more carefully.....That's no real problem, though.I will have the custom tiles in my mansion's resource, and the custom sprites in an added 'MM Sprites' file (like Mummy's Revenge').

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by joeb

Word of advice here....If you going to include a Sprites file just put all the modded graphics in there. Don't mix and match, tiles in the mansion, sprites in the rez file. Real easy to get out of sync. Been there done that.joeb

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Re: Problem w/ custom graphics
by aquaMat

No, I've put them all into the Sprites resource file anyway, it was much easier that way...... В 

Custom Music
by Wingy

I'm wondering how to add custom music. Tried what the custom level docs. said but nothing happened. Can anyone tell me how to do it?Thanks!

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Re: Custom Music
by VernJensen

My memory is fuzzy, so I don't know if this will work, but you could try it:Create a file named "Background Music 5.mp3". And if you want more music, name the subsequent files "Background Music 6.mp3" and so on.Then put these files into your Game Data -> Music folder. Then in the editor, select 5 and 6, etc. as the index for your background music. Should work, I think...Downside is there is no way to put this music "in" your custom mansion file. You will have to instruct players to add these music files to Game Data -> Music before playing your custom mansion.-Vern

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Re: Custom Music
by aquaMat

Thanks Wingy,for putting this question forward, as I'm facing the same problem at the moment (while I'm working on my new mansion "Discotheque Of Doom" (...as the name implies...this will be definitely a mansion in need of custom music)...!!As I happen to produce music for a living (at least when I'm not playing MM), it might be interesting to really WRITE custom music.Thanks Vern,for the explanation & hints.Too bad it's not possible to do it in a way В without people having to manually put the soundfiles into the game data ... as you can never be sure, wether they will really do it. (I confess: I never play MM with the music ON).

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Re: Custom Music
by Freddy

I am sure it works the way Vern explained, since I added a lot of music to mansions in earlier days. For private fun.:'( But!!! The bad news is that you can't launch mansions when you don't have all rights to use that music in your mansion. Are you the composer AND the musician? Please, take care about those things. We don't want to bring Vern and his ActionSoft in troubles, do we?

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Re: Custom Music
by Wingy

I was thinking maybe we could, put the music with the mansion when you download it. Therefore, there wouldn't be an annoying ERROR message popping up when you try to launch the mansion.

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Re: Custom Music
by aquaMat

@ Freddy:Yes. In my case there should be no problem, as for the music I plan to go along with "Discotheque..." I did write, play & produce it entirely on my own (in my studio).But of course there are legal issues involved, would people want to include music from -say- other artists' records with MM.Better not.....@ Wingy:Very good idea.

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Re: Custom Music
by aquaMat

The question of custom music turned up again, in another thread (but I put my comment here...in the 'custom music' thread)  I do habe a very good idea, which needs a bit organizing, but will be worth the effort.I'd like to initiate a sort of 'guideline' for custom music:If any designer who wants to include costum music with his mansions would give his custom music a number higher than ALL musics used before, we could minimise the need to exchange files in the Game Data folder, and maybe end up with just one file, which could remain there.In other words:Say, Wingy was the first one to use custom music, he'd start to number his tracks with the number 5 (as 1-4 are used by the original music).Next, I would create a mansion, and I would number my custom music with digits higher than the ones Wingy used.The end user who downloaded several mansions with custom music, could then easily create ONE Game Data/music file which had ALL music tracks ever needed in it (including the original music), and there would never be the need to permanently change files in the Game Data folder. Or -even better- and easier:Every designer could just update the latest 'official' Game Data/music file with his music, and we'd be up and running.What do you guys think?

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Re: Custom Music
by Freddy

The idea sounds good, but are you sure you can go further than music no. 9 ? I think I tried that ages ago and it didn't work. Is of course several MM-versions ago, so I don't know ...

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Re: Custom Music
by Wingy

Maybe you could make second copies of the original music and use their numbers? В :-?

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Re: Custom Music
by aquaMat

[quote author=Wingy link=1167346314/0#8 date=1168476178]Maybe you could make second copies of the original music and use their numbers?  :-?[/quote]But then, Wingy, my whole idea wouldm't work anymore.The good thing about it was, that even someone who wants to play the original levels etc. with original music, wouldn't have to replace the (latest) Game Data/music file.@Freddy: I didn't know about that. В  But I guess it's well worth a try.... I'll try it later today (I'll just name a track 'music11.mp3').

Shortcut to download page
by Rob Seegel

To download the most recent version of this mansion, click <a href="https://actionsoft.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=377">here</a>.

Shortcut to download page
by Rob Seegel

To download the most recent version of this mansion, click <a href="https://actionsoft.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=769">here</a>.

Shortcut to download page
by Rob Seegel

To download the most recent version of this mansion, click <a href="https://actionsoft.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=82">here</a>.

Shortcut to download page
by Rob Seegel

To download the most recent version of this mansion, click <a href="https://actionsoft.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=257">here</a>.

Shortcut to download page
by Rob Seegel

To download the most recent version of this mansion, click <a href="https://actionsoft.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=78">here</a>.