Beta 2: Leofani Manor

[Wingy]

0A0315030B0B620 wrote: 15504 - Hard

- That snake on the lower level MIDDLE has got to GO!  Please.
- If Jack pulls the lever on the left side, the upper snakes moves down, if he pulls the lever again, it kills him.  Cheap Death.

Don't worry, Missy. I've already fixed this, the conveyor belts in the middle will be longer, giving you more room to jump. The snake in the middle is a nice twist I wanted for hard mode. Shouldn't be so hard now. Also the lever won't be so close to the conveyor belt on the side so that top snake won't eat you alive.

0A0315030B0B620 wrote:
15305 - Hard

Snake in the middle has to go......this mansion has so many real impossible plays & not enough saves to accommodate them

Alright.

0A0315030B0B620 wrote:
15104 - Hard

The moving yellow platform, moves way to fast!

That's the idea.

0A0315030B0B620 wrote:
14703 - Hard

Cheap Death with ghost on bed. 

SUGGESTION:  It would be great to have a bat brick from the top of the roof to the bottom.

Alright? I'll make the ghost not move... more?

I'll think about that suggestion.

0A0315030B0B620 wrote:
15706 - Hard

Very hard to get thru that opening for the upper bat brick.

I believe you just jump when the bird isn't there? Is that really too hard?

3C3523353D3D540 wrote: 15502 - Hard

Jack gets stuck in this room if once the SKULLS disappear.
The only way he can get out, is if he dies.

Yep, I realized this as you were telling me about the timing of the disappearing bricks. I'll make them normal falling platforms.

3C3523353D3D540 wrote:
15708 - Hard

Back to this room (already posted problems from right to left)  This time, Jack is entering from left to right and he can't get to the lever.  He has to die to get out of there.
btw:  I had to put those green brick in the MLB just to continue testing.

You're not stuck. Again, just back up a bit and use jump from a lower place. And about the top, I'll put in a falling platform to fix whatever the other problem you thought was here.

3C3523353D3D540 wrote:
15710 - Hard

Going back from Left to Right, the bricks are to far apart.
As I posted before, this entire block area, in the next few rooms is a major problem.  see pic

Alright, I'll put a lower golden brick so you can go back.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote: 16112 - Hard

The coloured blocks in this room are just way to fast, Jack always falls thru them.  There should be a save in this area.
Trying to go up from right to left is near impossible!
THE PROBLEM WITH THOSE COLOURED BRICKS IS THAT THEY ARE TO SHORT FOR FOR JUMPING.

Alright Missy, in hard mode most players have adapted to the strategy of using the jump key followed by the movement key instead of vise versa. This is the technique used here that is very useful, and is used in almost all hard type mansions.

You have to be quick and basically always be jumping. Again, jump then move (other then the gap from getting on the first block) works very nicely.

Also, there is a save point at the end of this section, which is the trend I like to follow for my mansions.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote:
16113 - Hard

Pls check the spider in this room.  I can't do it again as he got Jack.  I think it is a cheap death.

Wait until the spider is almost to the water and jump over before it comes up.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote:
16114 - Hard

Jack enters this room on the lower level 1st, after all those NASTY coloured bricks in the previous room only to find a grey door with a save beyond it.  There is no way to open the grey door from this level.  This is NOT a good thing. 
The save should be at the beginning of entering this level not after.

If I allowed you to climb up to the lever in the same room, it would defeat the purpose of beating the rest of the section. You just have to remember opening the lever.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote:
16113 - Hard

Those moving belts are to short, now that Jack has to double back, he can't if this was a normal play, as he would have used up all his lives at those darn coloured bricks.
This entire section should be looked at.

Like I said, use the technique I told you above to beat those coloured bricks. Once you got it, its really easy. I'll do something about those conveyor belts.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote:
15911 Hard

- The 1st lady bug on the vine prevents Jack from making a clean jump.  To me this is a cheap death.
- The moving yellow platform disappears under the water & does NOT return.....can't p/u the shield and can't go up the ladder!

I'll get rid of that lady bug. I'll add a invisible platform thingy to prevent the platform from going in the water.

5F5640565E5E370 wrote:
15714 - Hard

Cheap death with the medusa head, if Jack wants to check out what is behind the last statue on right

Just gotta be quick.

K, taking a break for a second. On a side note:
Definition of a

Cheap Death

: A death applied to Jack that was COMPLETELY unavoidable unless they knew it was coming.

E.g. A room having an edge just as you come in; not time for the player to react; or a monster coming right at Jack.

I have a feeling you're misusing the term in some cases.

ANYWAY, moving on.

5A5345535B5B320 wrote: 16114 Hard

To me, this part makes no sense.  After Jack p/u the keys and finally uses the save, he has to go back all the way to the top to get out.  The reason I say that is because of those nasty coloured blocks.  There should be a short cut from room 16114 so that he can continue exploring the very lower level.  that is only my opinion because of those coloured brick....nightmare, real nightmare.

You just took the wrong approach at them. Try what I said before, (jump THEN move onto the next brick) but really fast, and you got it. It is hard, after all. I don't believe any other players had an issue with this.

5A5345535B5B320 wrote:
16309 -Hard

The spider over the moving brick is such a cheap death

The ending of this mansion is pretty cool, but I must say that it really does need a major overhaul due to all the problems in it.  Great design tho, very nerve racking & not in a good way.

What problems?

[hawaii]

Hi Anthony,

I cannot master those coloured bricks when they are lined up as steps.  I have tried & tried.  My Jack always falls thru them.   :'(  But, if no one else has a problem with them, then it's just me.  lolololol   
btw:  I did see someone else mention in their post (Rob Seegal in Castle Basano) that they agreed with Missy about those coloured bricks.  So I am not alone.  Yeah!   [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

Maybe it will be better the 3rd time around?   ;D

Thanks for the clarification re: Cheap Death.  I will use Moves to Fast in the future.

[cwncwn]

EASY........... 16697

You get stuck down below when the moving platform is on the top floor and you take the block down.  When the block reappears it blocks the moving platform from going down.
Consequently you are stuck on the bottom floor and cannot get up........ restart or die.

[RobSeegel]

All right Anthony, I finished the Easy version of the Leofani Manor, and haven't even opened the Normal or Hard versions yet. Do you have an updated version of the Hard version that includes changes you've made from various comments so far? I'd be interested in testing that version.

I haven't been spending a whole lot of time reading many of the comments. I did that for Castle Basano, and I think it influenced some of my own comments. I think I read the first post for this mansion and stopped there. I apologize in advance for any dupes.

General thoughts: Well, it was a beautifully designed mansion, and I thought you did a pretty good job keeping it easy, up to a point. For me that point was up until I left the mansion and headed up to the Sky Platforms. I think at that point you veered into Normal mode - at least for me, and at that point I stopped making as many notes, because I felt like it was all too much for Easy.

I'll go ahead and get some controversial comments out of the way:

For the Easy level, I think you probably could have

• omitted the Sky Platforms
  
• Shortened the Mansion by a few floors and have it end at the same level where the Chains were hanging from.
  
• omitted the Manor
  

Do I realize how big a change this is? Yes. It drastically shortens the mansion, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing for Easy. It would mean creating some new mechanism (more elevators or bat mobiles) to reach the higher level floor(s), and that's just for starters. Like I mentioned for Castle Basano, I think that each level should progressively get Larger and more complex, in addition to having more and faster creatures, and insanely precise jumps.

Anyway, I don't really expect you to take any of these radical suggestions, or even some subset of them. I was tempted to take a quick stab at it myself in the MMB. Since I haven't seen Normal or Hard, but I'm guessing that much of the basic layout is the same with faster and larger numbers of obstacles.

You might even want to wait until I finish Normal and Hard, before giving this much thought, to give me a chance to compare this version to those. Moving on...

I didn't find what I considered to be cheap deaths. I wasn't able to get Jack Stuck.

On to my running notes on the various rooms:

16097 - Yeah.. the money is slightly annoying. If that's the way Jack came, he sure wouldn't have left that money behind . I think using a hidden silver/gold wall is a bit much. For Easy, I think there should be unrestricted access. For Normal this would have been fine.

General comment: No music?

16101 Message:

How about: You look around for a way past the water, and ultimately decide to find a dryer entrance elsewhere.

16300 Kind of a weird block covering Jack's face in that little alcove on the bottom level all the way on the left side.

16296 Message: Poll = Pole. I saw that someone else commented on it too.

16496 Message: Maybe you should say

sunlight

instead of just light. After all, there is torchlight...

16495 Message - How about:

It's amazing that Legbert built such an advanced plumbing system considering it was built in the late 1800's...

...and it's still functioning!

16497 [How does one get to ladder? MMB]
I realized after going back to it in MMB, that I *had* been down the ladder (and got all the loot), but I didn't recognize it because it was completely dark the first time I

saw

the screen.

16699 - You might consider losing some of the screens where they hide or slightly obscure things (for the Easy level only)

Also... I think you should go very sparingly with hidden areas in the Easy level. Don't entirely lose them, because they give the level replay value for when players are going for the 100% secrets. I definitely think there shouldn't be any hidden keys on Easy level, at least none that will prevent you from completing a game.

16697 - I think you should lose the conveyor belt in this screen.

16500 - Message: Huh? Early 1700's in this message, but late 1800's in message in room 16495. How long did this guy live? ;-)

16299 - Looks like small layering issue in cave at the top of the

Bat Mobile

shaft, in the corner.

16104 - Message - Is it my imagination or is time moving backward for Legbert? 1800s, 1700s, yet died in 1672?

16105 - Try riding the left elevator up, then taking the right elevator down. I would have expected to be able to just repeat the loop, but I can't, because when coming down (back to 16105), the left elevator went up. I have to leave the screen to reset the elevators to go back up. Seems broken to me.

15905 - Looks like a minor layer issue when jumping up just to the left of the left elevator, at the end of the overhang.

Another minor issue with the moving platform, on the top portion (above the bookshelves), as it moves into a book shelf. Probably should float over that layer.

15904 - Minor layer issue on overhang in left doorway.

15902 [revisit this one. Too hard?]
(Came back to this in MMB after I finished level)

There are tougher screens in retrospect, but I still think that in general these blocks should hang around a bit longer. I played with the Time On value in MMB, 200 wasn't bad, could possibly be less time. Or replace them with falling platforms.

16704 Mixed feelings about the key popping out of the air on Easy. It's easy enough to get to, but if I hadn't been deliberately trying to get everything I might have missed the key, by skipping the money bag.

16703 - I think you need to either lose the bird, or replace the three lower disappearing blocks with something like the falling platforms. When you're using the disappearing block on Easy, I think you should use longer intervals.

16902 - Best inclusion of goblin and explanation on an Easy level I've seen so far. Nice. Maybe you should also point out that he is immune to the zapper.

16305 - Reconsider this room for Easy. It's not too bad. I'll reserve judgement until after I see the Normal version.

Also, I think the ladder that forces you to jump at the top to avoid falling doesn't belong on an easy level. I think it would be better having a moving platform from the level below it, and a cover over the hole to prevent players from falling in.

16705 - Consider losing the spider or replacing with a snake.

16505 - I thought all the back-and-forth because of the upper right lever was pretty tedious. Perhaps you could at least add a pole to the room on the right (16506).

15908 Consider losing the Birds

16112 - Clever placement of map!

15912 - Pretty fast troll for Easy

16508 - Nice looking room (once lit) I really like the board

supports

to the cave walls. Nice touch.

[hawaii]

1D23242D334A0 wrote: [quote author=0A0315030B0B620 link=1271445769/24#24 date=1271745729]
15706 - Hard

Very hard to get thru that opening for the upper bat brick.

I believe you just jump when the bird isn't there? Is that really too hard?
Anthony, I was NOT referring to the bird.  Give me some credit.   
Pls take a look at the mini pic I just took from MLB.  I think that there is a layering problem at the head area of that hidden opening.  If Jack doesn't jump in the right spot, he can't pass thru it.  (see Jack in the opening? above his head)

[hawaii]

615F58514F360 wrote: [quote author=0A0315030B0B620 link=1271445769/24#24 date=1271745729]
14703 - Hard
Cheap Death with ghost on bed. 
SUGGESTION:  It would be great to have a bat brick from the top of the roof to the bottom.

Alright? I'll make the ghost not move... more?
I'll think about that suggestion. 
1)  I don't think you understand.  On the bed, there is a skelleton.  If Jack jumps onto the bed, a ghost appears, and it is NOT moving.  So how can Jack explore past him when the ceiling angel & wall prevent him from jumping over.  In other words, Jack has to kill the ghost (loose a life) just to see what's there.

2)  Anthony, would you pls tell me how to do multiple quote answers the way you did to my posts (ON ONE PAGE), so I don't have to waste space by posting separately to each & every response you made to my posts. 

[hawaii]

437D7A736D140 wrote: [quote author=5F5640565E5E370 link=1271445769/26#26 date=1271782605]16112 - Hard

The coloured blocks in this room are just way to fast, Jack always falls thru them.  There should be a save in this area.
Trying to go up from right to left is near impossible!
THE PROBLEM WITH THOSE COLOURED BRICKS IS THAT THEY ARE TO SHORT FOR FOR JUMPING.

Alright Missy, in hard mode most players have adapted to the strategy of using the jump key followed by the movement key instead of vise versa. This is the technique used here that is very useful, and is used in almost all hard type mansions.

You have to be quick and basically always be jumping. Again, jump then move (other then the gap from getting on the first block) works very nicely.

Also, there is a save point at the end of this section, which is the trend I like to follow for my mansions.
The save point cannot be accessed from the lower level UNLESS Jack goes all the way to the roof and back down again to open the grey panel door 1st. 

I think that with the beta testers using

EXTRA LIFE

, they have not realized yet, that Jack may NOT be able to do this part AFTER coming down from those yellow blocks in the sky area to the left of this manor.  I can't remember where the last save was before entering this manor at the yellow door. You mentioned that your style is to put a save at the end of an area. Well, that would mean that there should be a save close by to the yellow door before entering this manor.

Oh well, I guess we will have to wait for beta 3 & just try to remember it then.

[RobSeegel]

Leofani Manor - Normal

Maybe i was a bit too hasty in my comments for the Easy mode. I do preview them before I post, but maybe I should avoid posting in the middle of the night.

I do see a progression from Easy to Normal, but I still think the Sky Platforms might be a bit too much for the Easy version, and there wasn't enough of a difference between the Easy and Normal version for that particular section. My comments here are a bit suspect though, because of my preference for progressively larger  mansion layouts given the level. I think it heightens the perception that each of the mansions are distinctly different. I probably won't complain about this in future posts.

One thing that's definitely surprising me with the mansions I've played so far is that in general they seem to be harder than I recall the mansions being in the original game (at least the included mansions)

I made it all the way through without having to resort to reopening to a save point, but I'm probably atypical. Newer players will probably have to reopen the game lots of times in some areas - especially the Sky platforms. It's just too easy to take a wrong (and fatal) step. I was able to get all the keys, and open all doors, and again (as in Basano) I found a greater percentage of secrets in the Normal than the Easy mode (though still not 100%). Also, as with Basano, I had fewer comments on rooms in the Normal version. I didn't have any Stuck Jacks, or Cheap Deaths. Stupid deaths, maybe, but that was all me.

My Comments on various rooms:

16097 - Yep, I think the trick with the Money Bag (from Easy) is more appropriate for this level than Easy.

16696 - Good. I really liked this one.

I may end up retracting some of my comments about Easy if Normal maintains this level of challenge. Enough to make me fear what Hard is going to be like...

16697 - Took me a few tries to get this one. It was pretty precise. I wonder if the key and last money bag should have been swapped to make the key *slightly* easier to get to, but still dangle some prize out there for those wishing to get everything.

16700 - I hate those crazy squares, yet I had fun with this room. Go figure... maybe I'm just getting used to dealing with them.

15905 - Was your intent here to only have the small falling platform, and leave out the two that appear on Easy mode? Not sure if you need all three for Normal mode.

[Later - I tested this by taking away the two larger falling platforms in MMB, and leaving the small one. Still doable, and more of a challenge and probably appropriate for room that isn't very difficult now]

16906 - Wow, that really throws you up in the air when Jack jumps up while on a platform moving up.  I really wasn't expecting to go up into the ceiling! Haven't see any traps that require this high jump capability yet, but imagine that I will eventually...

16904 OK - I'm officially not a fan of hidden keys that pop out of thin air ;-) This is a dynamic that I'm still not used to in the new MM game.

I thought I was stuck looking for a red and blue key. I had all the rooms visible in the map that I could get to, and it didn't look like I had missed anything. I was stuck behind the doors in room 16106. I'm not sure how I missed 16904 - it showed that I had visited it on the map, but I completely missed the hidden keys in this room.

I spent a considerable amount of time looking, and finally resorted to cheating with MMB. This is the first issue that really irritated me in any of the mansions... so far. To be fair, I'm not sure if I'm irritated at the room or at myself for missing it.

[I revisited this section after i finished the mansion. I realize now how I missed it - I'd found the hidden treasure in the upper left corner, and I recall wondering what the bat mobiles were for, but I instantly forgot all about it and moved on. So I had visited the room and the map showed it, and later on I completely overlooked the room. This whole incident made me realize how much I rely on the map.  ]

One last note - are you supposed to only exit this room from the upper left passage? I was unable to exit the way I came without losing a Jack.

OK.. enough about this room, I only focused on it because it cost me so much time ;-)

16108 - Small nitpick - No sign of a way up to Sky platforms from this room though the message indicates up.

15709 - Is the correct way to climb down and jump to the left using the ladder. That's a pretty tricky maneuver, that might be a bit rough for this level. Then again, the whole mansion has skewed slightly harder from what I expected.

It will be interesting comparing the Hard version. In Castle Basano, it seemed to me that there were lots of new sections that weren't present in Easy and Normal levels. I wonder if that will be the same with the Hard version of this mansion.

What I may do for future mansions, is work a small section of each and compare that rather than play all the way through on one level. I don't know, maybe I should record movies of the sections...

[hawaii]

172A27162020222029450 wrote:
It will be interesting comparing the Hard version.

Wait until you try the HARD version....you're in for a real ride. I don't know if you want to tackle it yet or wait for the revised version as it is full of problems right now & you may find yourself in MLB making changes just to continue.
If you find the rooms with the keys popping out of no where frustrating, then you will most surely find the problems in HARD a nightmare!

re: rooms with keys out of no where. Some of us play with the sound off, so look out for the stars that will sparkle in the room. That is your cue that a creature must die in order for the key to appear. Check out the Tutorial Mansion.....I/we finally had to, to get a handle on the new play tactics. Once you get use to them, you will find it quite a wonderful new play.

[RobSeegel]

If you find the rooms with the keys popping out of no where frustrating, then you will most surely find the problems in HARD a nightmare!

Maybe... I have a different set of expectations when playing something that's rated as HARD, but I'll find out soon enough. I haven't really seen too many of the comments for the HARD mansion yet.

Some of us play with the sound off, so look out for the stars that will sparkle in the room.

Yes, but that would have been different. I've seen rooms like this and I don't mind that so much. There are two areas in this mansion where there is one or more hidden keys and there are no sparkling lights. Isn't that linked to destroying all creatures in the room? Anyway, in two of the cases (in Easy and Normal) there weren't even any creatures in the room. I think everyone has their own set of pet peeves. For the moment, that one is at the top of my list. (Excluding the case you mention).

I think the big thing to watch out for is mobile platforms that don't appear to have any useful purpose (there's usually a reason for them to exist) - provided those platforms aren't hidden, too!

Check out the Tutorial Mansion...

First thing I did, and commented on, unfortunately they're not on this board. I didn't have posting privileges when I commented on it, so I sent the notes directly to Anthony.

I'm sure I'll get a handle on the new tactics, etc. Their newness hasn't worn off yet. I appreciate the advice.