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Beta 4 (5) - Nightmare _Mansion
#21
5B465A4C290 wrote: I hope you didn't think I said that. I suggested it could be a way to add the missing red key.
I must have misunderstood. Sorry.

Hard mansions??? Aren't we talking about easy mansion??
I think this is exchange is a good example of why it's not a good idea to have a generic (all levels) mansion topic. Too easy to get the conversation mixed up. You started out talking about the Hard mansion, then I started talking about the Easy mansion. I should have started a separate topic. My mistake.

:-?
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#22
I finished NMM easy yesterday with 2 spare keys (green and purple). Starting with the left wing I couldn't visit all room (which I can't either by starting with the right wing). However I got 100% secrets. Perhaps it was intended by the original author that players would not be able to visit all rooms in the mansion in one go. Then the question arises: Why should we change that?
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#23
Guessing at intentions/motives is kind of a tricky thing to do. It could have been an honest mistake. Probably, it's a good thing to remember that mansion designers don't have final say on what is included in a built-in mansion (as opposed to a custom mansion mansion). In the case of mm easy, it's possible to get stuck in the upper section due to keys. That should be changed.
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#24
Yes, if a JS is possible it must be fixed. Of course I am aware that builders give up their
copyright
of included mansions. But the question still lingers: Should players always be able to visit all rooms in a mansion in one go?
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#25
Let me just chime in as the designer for NM. Smile

There are lots of key issues with NM, but most of them are in favor of you having too many keys. NM was the first mansion designed, and it grew as the original game grew. That's why it's designed a little weird and very open. We honestly hadn't built a set of standards for Mansion development while NM was being built.

You are *supposed* to stick to either the left path or the right path, and I had the original intention to make it very difficult or non-obvious as to how to jump between paths, but since we are all veterans, these
secret
paths are very easy to find by normal standards. Smile Therefore, you'll end up with really weird key combos by jumping between paths, since this was only intended for expert players at the time.

It is an extremely open mansion, as opposed to Spider Palace which is very neatly closed. It's a great mansion for speed running in this case since there are so many paths to take. Smile

Because this mansion and another one (Falcon Manor? Don't remember) have branching paths that don't allow for backtracking, Vern decided to make it so that you wouldn't need to get all secrets to get 100%. It's up to the designer to specify how many secrets are needed for 100%, so that way if it's impossible to get all secrets in one playthrough of a mansion, you can still get 100% completion.

If I had all the free time in the world I'd love to sit down and delete all the doors and keys in NM and just start over and make it more balanced. We've all learned a lot about Mansion Design in the last 6 years (and in my case, about 9 years) Smile
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#26
Thank you, Jacob, for this
chime
Smile

I myself do not see why it should be a
must
to be able to visit every room in a mansion in one go as long as there are not JS etc. and the player can still get 100% secrets.
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#27
The thing I like best about Nightmare Mansion is that it pretty much embodies my general feelings about mansions. I think it ought to be possible to get all treasure in the mansion, but I don't necessarily think it should be easy. In the case of Nightmare mansion Easy, it's pretty easy to get to the end. It's less easy (and obvious) to get everything, because it's easy to take a wrong path that will prevent it. To me, it adds to the fun of trying to find the right path.

As satisfying as it is for me to gradually learn the right combination that will let me get everything, it's equally frustrating for me to play another mansion where there are no combination of right moves that will get the same result. There are two things that make this situation worse in my opinion:

* If all the other mansions work in such a way to make me believe that it should be possible to get everything.

* There is no hint (or sign) that warns that this very simple
rule
may not apply to a mansion. I spent a *lot* of time playing Falcon Manor Normal, which has two large exclusive forks, thinking that there must be a way - undoubtedy hidden that would enable me to take both paths. I thought I must just be missing it.

Despite the fact that there was nothing written that encouraged this expectation, I did expect it, and ended up feeling like the designer wasn't playing
fair
with the mansion. Over the years my opinion has been a bit more nuanced about such mansions, but to this day, Falcon Manor Normal remains my least favorite of all MM mansions. Early on, I found it unsatisfying, and I still do today, although I do admire certain aspects of it.

I do not put Nightmare Mansion in the same category, in fact if you look at my recommendations for NM in the key imbalance topic, you notice that they change very little.

Brell, my point isn't so much that players *must* always see every part of a mansion - that's not quite it. I don't think it should be mandatory or even easy. I just think it should be possible. Again, though - this point of view is limited to built-in mansions, only *especially* Easy variants. In the Easy version of Falcon Manor, it's actually possible to explore both forks. I don't mind the feature as much in Normal or Hard versions.

I do think it's clever in NM Hard, that the abundance of keys contribute to the challenge at the end where there are lots of monsters, and Jack can carry so few desperately needed shields to protect himself because of all the keys.

Anyway... I'm sure we all have our pet likes/dislikes. I recently discovered that I'd accidentally messed up one of the forks in Falcon Manor NORMAL when I was doing some clean up. As much as I disliked the fork, I wasn't about to modify it on the sly simply because of my personal preference, and I restored it. Even though I feel strongly about it, I realize that maybe a little diversity isn't such a bad thing.

Deep down, though... there's a small part of me that wishes I hadn't restored it. [smiley=evil.gif]

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#28
On Nightmare Mansion Hard, room 16501 has a semi-secret area (look for Jack sticking out from behind the fake wall in the pic) that isn't tagged with a 'secret' marker. Not sure if this is on purpose or not.


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#29
Phew. Just finished Nightmare Mansion Hard. You might be interested to know that I finished the game with no less than eight keys (4 purple, 3 yellow, and a blue). As a key/door count of the original mansion reveals that all types of keys are balanced (except red keys), you can indeed take some mighty strange paths through the mansion.
Mind you, I was going out of my way to collect as many keys and avoid as many doors as I could. In some cases, I'm pretty sure I made things significantly harder for myself where I could have just rushed ahead.

Regarding the difficulty of the mansion, I am of the opinion that one specific stage of the mansion is much tougher than the rest of it. The stage is after the final save pedestal, in the blue brick section before the ladder maze and the treasure room. Typically, most of my deaths in the segment were attributable to the monsters (not to mention the circuitous route I took to get rid of keys to open up slots so I could collect the keys that were already there... I already had 8 keys by the time I got there, you see).

One more thing: There's a secret-ish room in the white brick (ladder maze) segment that doesn't have a 'Secret' tag (so it won't increment the counter). It's room 18702. It's in the ladder maze segment, so there shouldn't be any trouble with forks and secrets%.


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#30
I agree with what Jacob said. If we both had a lot of time to throw at this, we'd both redo it to make it more tightly designed, so you're not left with odd keys at the end of the mansion and whatnot. But like he said, it was designed in the
early
days and it is what it is. Probably gonna stay that way, unless there are obvious ways to fix an issue here or there.
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