To be or not to be?

[Freddy]

That is the question!

Psychotronic wrote: ... I thought everybody was all excited for the custom graphics. ...

To have no misunderstandings, this quote is only a small extract out of some talk between joeb and Psychotronic about Dominator. But it feels like a good start to say something about the complex issue around the change of tiles, sprites, backgrounds, sounds and music. Is my list complete?

Maybe I first need to say very honest and open that as a designer, I don't think I will do these kinds of changes. The first reason is very simple: I don't have the skills to do it. Except the changes of the backgrounds and the music perhaps. But changing music has other objections as we know. But there is more. I still believe in the original Midnight Mansion game and its possibilities. Orpheus and Whisky Bar were perfect, although small examples to prove that. It is not a secret, because I did already said on the previous boards, that I am not one of the MM-addicts that is asking for sequels, begging for more or other enemies etc. The only thing that I did like to have (and is not to come) is an other kind of

light

with a limited effect like the maps. But to keep things clear, it is not because I am not asking for expansion packs with new enemies etc. or sequels that I am against it. And that I don't like to play mansions with changed

stuff

. So far my personal point of view.

Much more important is the general point of view. The Midnight Mansion game is changing in a way that not everybody likes. I know that from several emails and personal messages that I got, as administrator. It was not easy to make a good and serious analysis of this complex issue, but here is the result of my

investigation

.

1° After the release of MM 1.0.8 things will be different, but as joeb already said, the swapping of files before and after playing

changed mansions

does bother players. It is not enough customized now and does often seem to ask too much efforts for a lot of people.

2° Second important thing that comes back again and again is: the matter of identification. When Jack stays Jack, the snakes are suddenly in the grass, a vine seems to be a rope and a walking skeleton became a mummy, nothing seems to be wrong. Problems start when players don't recognize any more which enemies and prizes are which and if that new-thing-they-see is a prize or an enemy. Last step in this story was the replacing from Jack by JAC.

3° A less important point, but anyway to keep in mind, is that there are forummembers who don't have objections against

changed mansions

, but are hoping that it will not only be used for SF-stories

in Space

. There are other possibilities enough. It is

only

a matter of imagination.

I made three conclusions, which are no more than MY conclusions.

A. There are gamefreaks who like playing all kind of games. These people seem to be those who are always interested in all new games and thus also for the

changed mansions

in MM as well. There is a large group of players that is exited about StarCraft, Dominator etc. At the same time there are as well players (like me, but that doesn't matter) for whom Midnight Mansion is their only game. It is a game they like, or sometimes be very addicted to, and are more or less conservative about changes. I have no idea about the size of both groups. But maybe that doesn't matter. As long as there are enough designers to feed both kind of players with new mansions, it feels okay to me.

B. In the margin of the combination of the points 1 & 2 there came a question. Designers of

changed mansions

, hold your breath. Is it possible to FIRST make a playable unchanged version, BEFORE starting all the changes where is an other public for? (I think that the StarCraft episodes are playable. Dominator and what I saw yet from the Discotheque of Doom look pretty weird.) The purpose is of course that the mansions should be perfectly playable with and without the changes by both groups of players.

C. It gives me an idea for the boards as well. It could be good to split the custom mansions area in two categories: changed and unchanged mansions. Just as a service to our forummembers. Since I know that there are two different, but large groups of MM-players, it may be good that they perfectly know what they are starting with.

:question Begs for replies I think.

[sherryl199]

Hi Freddy -

You

took most of the words right out of my mouth

to coin a phrase. I love Jack, not crazy about JAC type changes. I didn't 'grow up' with all the space games so don't have an afinity for them. I am also very worried that all the changes will lead to 1st person shooter type games - what I definitely do NOT want to play and don't want my grandson playing either. I would guess that was some of JoeB's original motivation for games to play with his son. There are a lot of younger players who have different ideas - their creativity is boggling!!! I do think there is room for both - I just hope that the new doesn't overwhelm the old and result in a schism between the creators of the new and old. I can remember the early custom mansions after the origiinal 8 - what an amazing surprise just when we thought MM couldn't get any better! Now look what has happened.

I have another concern. There seems to be a fair amount of contention among some MM fans. My guess, from reading their letters, is some old grudges and pet peeves. This is a game with a huge diversity in fans - age, geography, skills - so some differences are to be expected. I am just sensing a lot of it lately. I think these new mansions are not always bringing out the best in everyone. I may be way off the mark and just sensitive because I don't want MM to change and lose its

innocence

for lack of a better word!

BTW - I made a duplicate copy of my MM folder and then left the space sprites set up in one of the copies. So far that works although I have not explored it a great deal. I play the StarCraft episodes with the original MM sprites - works just fine for me and I like the way it looks. It doesn't seem to interfere with the difficulty of the games.

So there - my quick thoughts.

Thanks for the post. I guess it will illicit some

interesting

??!! responsed.

[aquaMat]

Very interesting points you both have made.

Even though I know that there are people who do and others who do not love custom graphics, I don't think it is a good idea to

force

the gap (or schism) between those groups (for example by putting their resp. stuff and discussions in two different categories), as I not only think that the two groups can very well exist peacefully next and with each other in the world of MM, but - and that's more important - I strongly believe there are a lot of peoiple out there, who are not so sure if they belong only in one of, or in any of those 2 groups of people.

Just take myself as an example (sorry): I absolutely like MM in its original form, and love designing mansions with the original graphics and trying to work around the limitations of the original tiles and sprites to com e up with something new. On the other hand, I also love and design custom graphics mansions.

And some more than others: I am absolutely no fan of Science Fiction, let alone SciFi-games....so, while I marvel at all the work that has gone into Dominator, I'm not too much of a fan of it, compared to

Mummy's Revenger

or TOTOMBS, which I both think to be fantastic. (But as a designer, I know how fantastic Dominator is....)

So, which group am I belonging too ??

Please be careful !!
Let us not initiate aversities and

opponent groups

where there are in reality only several different points of view

.... as always, BTW.

[ryos]

Wow. MM fans are certainly a diverse bunch! :o

Forgive me if what I have to say sounds offensive, because I don't mean it to be, but I feel like there's only one way to say it and that's the offensive way. Here goes.

What are you all worried about? In all the years of fan mods to video games, I have never heard of people actually complaining that a mod (short for modification) modified the base game. Midnight Mansion is not some temple whose purity must be defended. It's a game that people play and enjoy customizing.

Now that's off my chest (), I can address your conclusions with civility.

1) I agree this is too painful as it stands now. In fact, I feel strongly enough about it that I wrote a utility to take care of the switching for me, every time I play. I've been waiting to share it until I can find the time to design an appropriate icon, but if people want it now and are willing to put up with a space-themed (*gasp* ;D) icon (because it's an adaptation of a utility I wrote for a space-themed game), then I'll post it now.

2) I really consider

total conversions

like Dominator as new games. We were all new to MM once, and had to familiarize ourselves with the mechanics. I see no problem with doing the same for a new game that happens to use the MM game engine. If you can let go of the notion that a game engine was built for just one game, a lot of possibilities open up to you as a player and designer.

A) Guilty as charged.

B) I disagree. If you've ever opened Dominator with the default graphics (which I did once just for kicks), you'll see that the replaced sprites don't map one-to-one to the ones that would be used if the graphics weren't customized. This is asking people, who have already put a huge amount of time into original artwork, to also double their effort on mansion building, since they would have to re-place each and every tile.

C) I have no opinion (really!). Do as you will.

As a final note, the administrators are always talking about not attempting to limit the creativity of designers, but that (unless my reading comprehension sucks ) is exactly what seems to be going on here. Not every mansion is for everyone; for example, House of Wonders is both way over my head skill-wise and not my cup of tea design-wise, but do you hear me complaining about its existence? I recognize that it's just not for me, and don't seek to limit the enjoyment others may glean from it.

[Wingy]

Freddy wrote:
B. In the margin of the combination of the points 1 & 2 there came a question. Designers of

changed mansions

, hold your breath. Is it possible to FIRST make a playable unchanged version, BEFORE starting all the changes where is an other public for? ...

Absolutely no! It takes the whole idea of custom graphics right out of the mansion!  :o But it would be ok to make a board for custom graphics mansions. (I think the name Changed mansions sounds abit.. against them)

sherryl199 wrote: ...What I definitely do NOT want to play and don't want my grandson playing either...

If you looking at Ted, because he has a gun, doesn't mean its a 1st person shooting game! And the gun doen't have any ammo! He just spins it instead of a yo-yo!

Like what ryos said, what are you worried about, Freddy? I'm just trying to make MM a better game with the world of Ted & StarCraft!

[sherryl199]

Wingy - I didn't mean Ted was a 'shooter' at all. My point was that there are a lot of games available if one wants a shooter game. One of the huge plusses for me is that MM is not one and suitable for little kids and us big kids.

I'm still unsure if there is a downside to making a duplicate copy of MM and installing the custom graphics for a particular game in that copy. At this point I have Dominator in a duplicate so I can switch back and forth between that and the original MM sprites. I had StarCraft in the duplicate but found I can play that series with the original sprites if I'm too lazy to switch - although the SC graphics certainly contribute to the fun!

Sherry

[Spiak]

As strictly a player (the one mansion I tried to design never got past 8 rooms) I've got to say that I prefer the original mansions and the early custom mansions. Some of the more recent ones have been a major challenge to

get into

. But that is just my personal opinion. I like the exploration aspects of the game more than the competitive element. I played Dominator without changing the graphics, and with the exception of some weird looking rooms the only problem I had was the gauntlet. I keep missing the platforms and falling. I don't mean to discourage anyone, but I'd love to see more like MMaM (except not so darn big).

Just my 2 cents,
Spiak

[Psychotronic]

I pretty much completely agree with Ryos, and I'll add this. The Midnight Mansion game isn't going in one direction or another. There's what, four or five custom graphics mansions out of a hundred? We have twice as many active designers as we did a few months ago, and they're all making different kinds of mansions. We should consider ourselves blessed.

Wingy and Joe might be making more traditional mansions if the option wasn't there to add new graphics, but then again, they might lose interest. They're just going where the muse takes them, and every player has the choice to play their mansions or not. If they get too far out in left field, maybe people will lose their enthusiasm for the new mansions, and they'll have to get back to basics - and then so be it. I really don't see a problem.

[Freddy]

Thanks for all the replies!

Two very important things, to keep things very transparent.

1° I was not

worried

at all about what is going on. And didn't say or suggest that, I hope. That was anyway certainly NOT my message in my post when starting this topic. After I saw the interesting talk between joeb and Psychotronic, I only thought, as

administrator

, that I did a good job with informing everybody as neutral as possible.

2° This issue is also not a matter of black or white. And is of course not a schism. Young Wingy saw the point of my proposal for the boards fastest. That is only a matter of organizing our forums, which is the administrators' responsability as well. But not without democratic consultation over here! When suggesting to make 2 categories for changed and unchanged custom mansions everybody should have THREE choises in future. Sorry, that I didn't explain that some more in my first post. One can not only choose between A OR B, but of course also A AND B. I just thought it would make the life of ALL our MM-addicts of ANY kind more simple. No?

[joeb]

Since I seem to be the person who is pointed to and quoted a lot when it comes to custom mansions I guess I need to offer my point of view here. Before I do I will qualify my comments with this. My goal is not to annoy anyone but to offer what may be what I consider contrary, but nonetheless valid positions to several earlier posters. One of them being that I would like to see MM turn into a 1st person shooter. I am and have ALWAYS been a fan of strategy games and quite honestly am bored by sitting there just shooting at things appearing on the screen and Matt wanted to do a space theme. Personally I'd like to on my own do an adventure thru several castles in several different countries almost like a James Bond movie. That said......

I know my first analogy here will probably be not taken well and it might be said that it doesn't fit but it most certainly does.

Get a horse

When motorized vehicles first appeared there was a huge outcry against them and a lot of sentiment that they wouldn't last and could never replace the horse. I think everybody can agree on what happened, horseback riding has become a hobby and a sport but not the mainstream for transportation. What is the lesson? You can't stop progress nor should you try cause it's just not going to happen. Has Vern stopped development of MM? No. And what are the latest changes going to be for? Enhanced functionality for custom graphics, as well as a lot of other features.

I mentioned in one of my posts that I might do a

standard

mansion just to get rid of the tag of

rebel

. Psychotronic hit me square between the eyes with a valid truth. Do I enjoy making standard mansions? Not nearly as much as the custom ones because then it becomes much easier to

theme

. I want to do a space theme, fine I do a set of graphics specifically for that. I wanted to do an adventure through the pyramids and the desert. Could I have done that with the standard graphics? Maybe, but the modified graphics REALLY got the look and feel I wanted. Dominator would have been nigh on impossible to get to look like a space adventure without the control panels, droids and other space specific objects. And for TOTOMB I needed jungles and mountains.

As far as making more traditional mansions if the option was there, Psychotronic hit the nail right on the head again. I think we would have lost interest. I never liked pigeonholes and when it comes to breaking out of them, yes I AM a rebel. Besides the fun of playing BOTH kinds of mansions and YES we do play both, just got done with This Old Mansion. The ability to play and design both types AND yes we plan on doing a couple of more traditional ones, is a wonderful option.

But now we come the issue that bothers me the most about this situation. Right now 2 of the board administrators have communicated to me that they both like playing and designing standard mansions and their idea of MM was little Jack jumping over spiders. AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I'd like to say that again; because your enjoyment of MM comes from that type of game you're not a bad person and if you enjoy hoping on the horse then do it. That's your choice, but at the same time don't frown on me because I like to drive a Ferrari, or a Hummer or a motorcycle, or a speedboat, etc., etc., etc. Don't make it difficult to get what I like to do out to others like me. And if there are others out there who get the same enjoyment then why put us (or yourselves) in a pigeonhole. You do custom mansions, that's YOUR board, we do STANDARD, this is our board. What's wrong with having everything in one place and just stating a type? Custom - Traditional. Again quoting from, actually paraphrasing the wisdom of Psychotronic here. If the people don't like your mansions then they won't play them and maybe you should rethink what you're building.

Matt and I will continue to build mansions of both types and although for many of you, IT'S JUST A GAME. I'm sorry but for us it's a learning tool. Matt has learned simple physics, logic, sound, music, computer OS basics, graphics.... Why shouldn't we share that? I made a big mistake when I left the board the first time because I felt that the customizations I was doing weren't important to anybody. Email proved I was wrong I have no intention of making the same mistake again. There ARE other people out there interested and there ARE others like Wingy who have some much they'd like to do but don't understand how to get there. I can (and have offered on several occasions) to help him because he's interested in doing what I've been able to.

Enough already. The best thing that could happen IMNSHO is to find some who IS interested in customization and allow them to be the Custom administrator. Then there would be no issues in who likes what type of mansion.

Joe B