Beta 4: Dr. Demented's Den

[Semi-Native]

Rob -

re 15298: I was talking about the return trip, from left to right. When I posted about this, I didn't realize Jack could just walk back. The blue bat platform was there in 15297, waiting to go back, so Jack hopped on and then had to jump off in 15298 to avoid the zappers.

And I can't really pinpoint the parts in the blue section that are the biggest pain. It's more a matter of reaching a frustration level where I've had enough. I'll wait until you make it a bit easier and then try to be more precise.

[RobSeegel]

All right, made several changes - mostly to areas mentioned in past reports. 

I've made changes to the first floor of the

blue area

/area 4. I still have a few changes to make to the second floor (and possibly the bonus area on the third floor), but I feel pretty good about the changes so far.  I wanted to post an update  both to get some feedback on whether these changes went far enough AND to ensure I got an update out today.

For the update tomorrow, I'm hoping to have area 4 cleaned up - though this will depend on what I and anyone else finds.  All BBB for 1-4 will hopefully be done, and maybe I'll have that one pesky room back in area 1 finished.

I've tried to log the various changes:

15298:
* Removed zappers
* added blue bat tile

15300:
* replaced blue bat platform with black one
* removed BBB for now

15301
* reduced speed on all blocks by 1.

15698:
* removed skull-spider - that may be enough, since the eyes aren't very fast - neither are the zappers. Jack has plenty of room around zappers esp. since only one is on at a time.

15699:
* Removed disappearing squares (I'm not a fan of these anyway).
* replaced with disappearing tiles (both kinds - it's easier trust me)
* reduced speed of all blocks by 1
* removed ghosts
* changed direction of center loop to be counter-clockwise.

It should still be Hard, but perhaps not insanely hard. I guess I'm a worse judge of this than I thought.

16094:
* Removed platforms from bottom. This makes this room dramatically easier.

16900:
* Replaced moving platform/lever with a falling platform. Should be tough to be have a JS with this, plus I was able to get rid of some triggers.

16901:
* Lowered bat platform, to have clearance with changes in room 16902

16902:
Added green tile by bat trigger - had adjust falling platforms and blockers to accommodate it.

Changes to Silver/Gold puzzle

15708 Labeled some of the levers, used green levers for

toggle gray doors

  Probably a bit more work needed to clear out some switches/extraneous levers.
  The thing I was going for here was trying to ensure that there wasn't 1 clear
  move that could ever be taken.

15905:
* removed 2 ghosts
* removed column that's very close to jump
* moved silver blocks a bit further away from doorway

15906:
* removed ghost
* replaced zapper with gray door
* removed snake - it basically prevented Jack from jumping across gap. I widened gap slightly.
* Slowed skull spider by 1
* Considering losing a hanging spider, they kind of annoy me. If I do then I'm likely going to make the remaining one faster.

15907:
* Attempted to label levers/doors - not 100% happy with the visual noise it's added, but I thought it might make it more clear what a player is going to have to do. The point of this room is to get into the center area in order to get access to the next level up.

15908:
* Removed scorpion
* Slowed down skullspider
* Slowed down bird by 1
* Removed zappers
* Added grey door/switch
* Moved gold tile away from door a little to prevent accidental fall.

15909:
* Gray door toggle levers are green (keeps with same convention used in Troll door puzzle)
* put L5 silver/gold tile under gold/silver toggles (same as 15907)
* removed center zapper
* removed additional gray door on middle floor, right side. (Jack Stuck)
* Both floor to ceiling zappers in place, but I reduced time on for right one by 30, and increased time off by 30. It should be easier. That leaves one semi nasty zappers.
* The two

double zappers

are not part of this puzzle and intended to keep player away from certain areas at this point in the game. I could be convinced to change the double zappers to two gray doors - one open/one shut to prevent toggles from letting players in too early, but that could also be confusing.

Edit: removed attachment - more recent version later in thread

[RobSeegel]

Just a quick update which I think should make

the blue section

/area 4 (second floor) easier, and a bit more straight forward.

15506-15508 are still pretty difficult (that is the bonus area), with this section, it's a good idea to think about each pull of the lever carefully, and what the consequences may be.

15506:
* added more time to the off setting for zapper

15508:
* added more time to the off setting for zapper

15705:
* removed skullspider
* removed scorpion

15706:
* removed hanging spider

15707: minor redesign
* changed bottom layout near levers
* added color-coded labels
* change lever to open specific door
* ensured that the blue levers actually hooked up to zappers

15708:
* removed extraneous lever
* changed silver/gold toggle to be a gray door lever
* modified to use purple key - improved top left area

15709:
* removed a few snakes

There will be another update tomorrow morning. More than one update a day is probably a bit much for testers (and me). I'm *hoping* that all the major and most minor issues will be sorted out by this weekend.

Edit: removed attachment

[Semi-Native]

HARD

16700 Jack can't avoid the skull spider that falls down on him from the trap door, since he has to concentrate on getting the Goblin down to pull the last lever.

15900 The red bird flies behind layer 6 bricks on the right, but only partially, so it looks strange.

15506 Is the top right blue-handled lever supposed to turn off the zapper beam in front of the yellow door? Right now it doesn't do anything.

[RobSeegel]

16700  Jack can't avoid the skull spider that falls down on him from the trap door, since he has to concentrate on getting the Goblin down to pull the last lever.

Actually, that's part of the trap. Too Hard?  ;-)

The placement of the spider up there was deliberate. It's easy to avoid with a little planning. It's possible to use the goblin to make the two platforms move (really, the goblin would only need to pull the one lever - the one that allows Jack to come over), so that Jack can jump over and pull the red lever himself - preventing the spider from falling on him. At that point, the spider is fairly easy to avoid.  It's a sneaky trap, but avoidable. Just because the goblin is over there, doesn't mean he has to be the one to pull *all* the levers. I suppose I could use a BBB for a hint.

15506  Is the top right blue-handled lever supposed to turn off the zapper beam in front of the yellow door? Right now it doesn't do anything. Yep - I think so, I'll look at it when I get home.

[Semi-Native]

102D2011272725272E420 wrote: 16700  Jack can't avoid the skull spider that falls down on him from the trap door, since he has to concentrate on getting the Goblin down to pull the last lever.

Actually, that's part of the trap. Too Hard?  ;-)

The placement of the spider up there was deliberate. It's easy to avoid with a little planning. It's possible to use the goblin to make the two platforms move (really, the goblin would only need to pull the one lever - the one that allows Jack to come over), so that Jack can jump over and pull the red lever himself - preventing the spider from falling on him. At that point, the spider is fairly easy to avoid.  It's a sneaky trap, but avoidable. Just because the goblin is over there, doesn't mean he has to be the one to pull *all* the levers. I suppose I could use a BBB for a hint.

Oh, duh! Why didn't I think of that. :-[

HARD

15508 Jack Stuck. Silver blocks are on, Jack died in zapper beam and reappeared on the left-most ladder. He can't go up or down. This room is too tedious.

15506 Jack Stuck. Gold blocks are on. Jack is on the floor at the bottom right and can't jump over the gold bricks, can't climb the ladder because there's nothing at the top.

15509 Jack Stuck. Jack went to the right, re-entered 15509, gray door shut behind him and he couldn't jump across - the trigger for the platform for him to jump on is not turned on.

15710 It's a pain to have the levers reset when Jack has to leave and re-enter the room (if the Goblin falls in). Very frustrating.

15909 Jack Stuck. Gray doors are in the wrong position. Even with toggling gold/silver bricks, Jack doesn't have a way out.

16506 Jack can't get the yellow key. I think you forgot to include a blue bat platform, maybe?

16504 Way too many critters to dodge.

16705 Did you mean for the lever behind the purple door to turn off the zapper in front of the left pole? Right now it doesn't do anything.

16507 Shields don't travel on conveyor belt, they stay put. You need to check the box in the MLB to let them fall. Also, from the middle of the room on the right, Jack can jump into 16508 and die by zapper beam.

[RobSeegel]

I address what I can now, and the rest later, when I have the ability to check the room numbers.

15508  Jack Stuck.  Silver blocks are on, Jack died in zapper beam and reappeared on the left-most ladder. He can't go up or down. This room is too tedious.

Deliberately, so. It requires Jack to go through the block/zapper gauntlet twice. This is actually a recurring them in many of the mansions in this puzzle (unfortunately), where I force Jack to go through difficult areas as many times as I think I can get away with. Perhaps here, it was too many. Any thoughts on how it might be less tedious. I could reduce the number of zappers/jumps, and still force Jack to loop around. The intent here is definitely to make Jack work for the prize, which I believe will be two extra lives (or more) plus a save spot. I'm open to suggestion...

15710  It's a pain to have the levers reset when Jack has to leave and re-enter the room (if the Goblin falls in). Very frustrating.

Once through this area, Jack will never have to go back through it. Initially, I was leery of partial success - it was either all or nothing, however this is a critical path, and I can see how that would be frustrating. You have no idea how many times I played this room while setting it up... and I think that affects my judgement.

How about if made the six of the nine switches (the ones in the three I's) stick, and used some labeling scheme to differentiate those from the two on either side, and the one in the bottom. That way it would force at least the final three to done within the same session at the end? This way it preserves at least some of what I intended, but isn't quite as nuts?

I have to admit the movie

Despicable Me

was going through my head while putting much of this together.

16506  Jack can't get the yellow key.  I think you forgot to include a blue bat platform, maybe?

Nope. The platform is in the next screen down, and is triggered by a tile even further down. In order to complete the mechanism that gets the platform, you have to get further into the section. That's the challenge for this key. As opposed to the other two that each have a single, tough room.

16504  Way too many critters to dodge.

If this is the room I think it is, then there should be precisely 10 critters. some of them fixed place (more or less). The toughest of the bunch should be the fish. This room I believe has a BBB that tells you to talk to the guards, who basically tell you to collect shields and clear out all the critters. It's a scavenger hunt for shields to take out the critters. I'll double check the layout of the critters. I tried to ensure that you'd face no more than 2... maybe 3 at once, but I'll need to double check. Maybe you're talking about a different room.

16507  Shields don't travel on conveyor belt, they stay put. You need to check the box in the MLB to let them fall. Also, from the middle of the room on the right, Jack can jump into 16508 and die by zapper beam.

I need to take the shields out of this room anywhere. They're put here to help with the shield scavenger hunt, and I I'm not sure it's fair to put some of the shields in a bonus room. Then again, they'd be used to access a yellow door (

prize

from the scavenger hunt).

I'll double check those zappers/gray doors.

Thanks!

[margherita64]

HARD

15503 - When Jack return from room 15303 he can't go on the grey platform, he fall down.

I modified that in the editor moving the platform a bit down.. now I'll go ahed testing

[RobSeegel]

I modified that in the editor moving the platform a bit down.. now I'll go ahed testing

Great suggestion. I'll do the same in mine. I thought I'd corrected these sorts of things, but I appreciate hearing about it. Thanks!

I'll also double check all the platforms in this area.

[RobSeegel]

margherita: I tried and tried to reproduce what you showed me, and the only time I succeeded was when the platform was in transition. When I was anticipating it appearing and descending before it has fully appeared.

There and in other spots, that where the platform is at the same position away from the ladders.

I *did* get rid of the zapper that runs horizontally across the middle though.