Beta 3 Available

[Wingy]

I hate to burst anyone's bubbles... but Vern already removed it from the game.

And I've already been changing my mansions in the sequel to be attuned with the removal of this exploit, so there's really no going back. No petition will do anything, sorry to say.

This does NOT mean it will be gone in the original game. If you really really want to play with it, make/play levels with the classic game.

[sherryl199]

Things that Vern has taken out can, perhaps, be put back in - I don't think anything in MM is an absolute or most of us would not play or design. It's beauty and fun is, in my opinion, the flexibility and responsiveness to players wishes. At least that is why I continue to play MM. The game is the MM community and reflects players' and designers' growth. Otherwise Vern would be back at MM with only 8 mansions.

[brell]

2D363B2C2C27326F67675E0 wrote: The game is the MM community and reflects players' and designers' growth. Otherwise Vern would be back at MM with only 8 mansions.

Very well put, Sherryl. It is US, the players and builders, that keep MM going.

[brell]

033D3A332D540 wrote: I hate to burst anyone's bubbles... but Vern already removed it from the game.

And I've already been changing my mansions in the sequel to be attuned with the removal of this exploit, so there's really no going back. No petition will do anything, sorry to say.

Hmm....
Are you Vern's spokesman? There is no petition going on. Just a poll to check whether the majority of the MM community wants this feature or not.

[Toybox]

First of all, I think Vern expressed somewhere very explicitly that ladder jumps remain a feature of the Original game.

Now, as for removing it or not from the Sequel: I've always felt that, amusing and sweet though it is, it doesn't really look like a legal move. Now I'm all for illegal moves in Custom mansions, but I wouldn't support them in the Official ones.

So of course Vern can decide to ask builders to abstain from using compulsory LJs in Official mansions, but these would be free of use for custom mansions. However, the possibility for a player to use ladder jumps anyways also allows for shortcuts and quick-and-dirty solving of puzzles, most strikingly in some of the Gold-and-Silver sections. To prevent this, the designer has to either decide it doesn't matter, or make the mansion ladder-jump proof which can be at best cumbersome.

So while ladder jumps certainly increase the amount of possible puzzles, they also put limitation in puzzles from the other side.

Also, as long as ladder jumps are not officially mentioned in the Tutorial, there is no reason to assume a player would know it exists at all -- unless he or she's a regular forum visitor. (BTW [wishful thinking alert] are there statistics regarding the estimated number of players vs. people who visit the forum, even without registering?)

A possibility to take the best of both worlds, and here

possibility

is taken in a very loose sense [in other words, Vern would have to do all the work], is to allow ladder jumps for some types of ladders and not the others. Like, Jack can jump from broken ladders, but not the whole ones.

[VernJensen]

One option would be to allow ladder jumps in custom mansions, but not in the built-in ones. The disadvantage here is a slight inconsistency in how the game plays (i.e. some players might try to use them in built-in mansions), but I don't see it as being a big problem. Would make the MM community happy, while keeping players from

cheating

in the built-in mansions (in areas where ladder jumping was not intended, and never documented). Opinions?

[Semi-Native]

I think that's a good solution, Vern. It would make everyone happy. But does that mean you have to have 2 different kinds of ladders in the level builder?

[RobSeegel]

How about a checkbutton for mansion configuration in the builder that could be set to enable/disable the exploit for the mansion? This way, you can ensure that it works consistently within a mansion. It is either there for all ladders, or no ladders.

The default setting for this could be set to disallow it, which would be used for included mansions. Custom mansion designers could elect to allow it for their mansion and it would be up to them to document it or not within their mansion.

This would allow custom mansion designers to elect to have the same restrictions as included mansions if they preferred.

[aquaMat]

I actually do not feel like or wish having to go through all my MM2 mansions (although you do know only T.I., I have built already 3 and a half!) just to look whether I have used ladders in a way that has been very acceptable until now.....

A sudden change like this could spoil a few puzzles, if not entire rooms and I can only repeat here what I've written in the other thread (where it's about not being able to step on a ladder midway any longer):

Why such a change ?
What would we gain?  Not much, I'm afraid....
But we'd lose a whole bunch of interesting scenarios !

And what's next...???
If we take out all the oddities and quirky (originally unintended) bits we will rob MM of what is IMHO one of its strongest characteristics:
its potential to grow beyond its original limits and its ability to keep surprising players and designers alike.

MM has always been the best of all games. Period.
And I vote strongly for it staying that.... let's not restrict the game's uniqueness by taking or smoothing out all its edges and pecularities.

[Semi-Native]

Well said, aquaMat. Anything goes in custom mansions, I feel. It does make the game more interesting and opens up all kinds of possibilities. I can understand Vern wanting to restrict oddities in the built-in mansions, but designers should be free to use those quirks in custom mansions.