Beta 3 Available

[brell]

0635223E1A353E23353E500 wrote:

- Removed

ladder jump

exploit.

Why on earth did you do that? The VERY best eastern egg in the game! I used it a little in my hard version of TC&TC. I will not change it. If this is the way that MM will evolve, then count me OUT.

[rose]

Vern, don't take away the ladder jumps!!!!!! They are a fun part of the game.

[sherryl199]

I think we need a

Bring Back the Ladder Jumps

petition!

[rose]

Absolutly! I'll write my name 100 times.

[RobSeegel]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I like the change. I'm glad that it's not being removed from the original to preserve the integrity of all the existing mansions that rely on it, but I guess I don't understand how this quirk significantly improves the game. I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions.

It never seemed particularly intuitive to me, and introduced another

no way back

possibility that can be annoying - at least to me, especially now that other

no way back

features have been added. It will take a little getting used to (I tried using it once or twice in Beta3 without thinking about it), but I'd rather see newer ways for Jack to interact with the environment.

[sherryl199]

I like/d that Jack always had to look at a ladder in more than one way - step off? jump? not to take that ladder for granted, plus the upper or lower ladder jumps are another skill needed by the player. Every time I died because I didn't see where the top or bottom of the ladder ended, I cursed (?!) that I didn't look carefully. It added, for me, one more level of complexity to a simple event.

[sherryl199]

Answer #2
The desire to keep the ladder jumps may also be a function of how long one has played MM. Most of us who have written that he/she will miss it and are unhappy about its demise, have played a long time and, perhaps, look for and like

subtleties

like ladder jumps. We've also played through the original mansions and all the custom mansions so we're used to new techniques that have developed along the way. My opinion of course.

[brell]

784548794F4F4D4F462A0 wrote: I guess I'm in the minority, but I like the change. I'm glad that it's not being removed from the original to preserve the integrity of all the existing mansions that rely on it, but I guess I don't understand how this quirk significantly improves the game. I'm a little surprised by some of the reactions.

It never seemed particularly intuitive to me, and introduced another

no way back

possibility that can be annoying - at least to me, especially now that other

no way back

features have been added. It will take a little getting used to (I tried using it once or twice in Beta3 without thinking about it), but I'd rather see newer ways for Jack to interact with the environment.

Tell me then Rob, do you want other unintended features of the game out as well?  For instance:
1. Jack uses armlifts to get otherwise unreachable keys and treasure (discovered by Toybox I think, used in many mansions)
2. Jack goes through a solid wall with the aid of a lever (discovered inadvertedly by me in The Pirate Invasion, has not been used much as far as I know)
3. Duplicating Jack so there are more than one Jack in a mansion (examples: Dalton Brothers and Identical twins).

There are more features that players and builders have found in the game and surely more to come.  These features only make a very good game better, IMO.  I don't see why they have to be removed unless they are clearly a bug, like when Jack could climb onto a ladder from a ledge that did NOT go under the ladder.

The ladderjump feature only adds to the building and playing possibilities of the game.  I surely hope Vern will not remove it from the classic game since that would ruin about 30% of all custom mansions.

I forgot:  Rob, your

no way back

argument is a poor one for many reasons:
1. It is totally up to the builder whether or not the player can go from A to B and back again.
2. While you usually cannot go back at the same ladder you jumped from the builder can arrange another way back.
3. It is easy to construct a ladder WITHOUT any ladderjump in a way that you CANNOT go back the same ladder.
4. It is easy to construct many types of situations where you can go from A to B but not go back without any ladderjumps involved.


I have set up a poll about this, here.

[aquaMat]

69727F686863762B23231A0 wrote: I think we need a

Bring Back the Ladder Jumps

petition!

Absolutely !!

First time I read this..... I am absolutely shocked !! :o
Vern, don't do that....... not only is it an outstanding feature (like many others that were not originally intended, but

discovered by us

!), but it is already used in so many mansions (to great effect).... what would become of them ??!!!

In Germany we have a word for something like this:

verschlimmbessern

.
It's an artificial word - which doesn't exist officially. It describes the fact when people try to better something too much....literally it means something like

to better (sthg) for the worse

.

[RobSeegel]

In response to brell:

>>do you want other unintended features of the game out as well?

First off, I could take or leave this

unintended feature

. When Vern announced his intention, I thought about it a bit and remembered my frustration with it when I first started using it (to get through custom mansions) a few years ago.
Though I may be used to it now, I still don't think it's a particularly great feature.

>>Tell me then Rob, do you want other unintended features of the game out as well? 

I am not on a crusade to wipe out unintended features I didn't point out the ladder exploit, nor did I lobby Vern to remove it. I did say that I was glad Vern had removed it. Also, I have a certain amount of sympathy for his position, having been in it several times myself when decided whether to keep or get rid of a bug that is perceived as a feature. I've even been bit by it myself, when I've written software that made use of an unintended feature, and later had problems when the bug was quietly fixed.

Something that has been glossed over I think, is that he has stated that he has no intention of removing it from the original game. Those mansions are all safe. The only one I can think of that would be negatively affected at this time would be yours (TC&TC).

But, since you asked:

>>1. Jack uses armlifts to get otherwise unreachable keys and treasure (discovered by Toybox I think, used in many mansions)

I would be against its use in an included mansion, unless mentioned in the tutorial, especially if it were critical to reaching the end of the mansion. That said, there's a lot of things that wouldn't bother me as much in a custom mansion. Then again, in a custom mansion, I have the power to fix things that bother me too much.

>>2. Jack goes through a solid wall with the aid of a lever (discovered inadvertedly by me in The Pirate Invasion, has not been used much as far as I know)

Yes. This is an example of something that should be fixed, IMO. It is obviously a bug.

>>3. Duplicating Jack so there are more than one Jack in a mansion (examples: Dalton Brothers and Identical twins).

This is a case where the unintended feature looks as though it was incorporated into the game with the Goblin (and documented). So it became part of the game. Who knows, perhaps the ladder exploit will too after the outcry.

I guess if there's one thing that surprises me the most about any of this it's the fact that these unintended features have been out there for so long. They have been mentioned on the board from time to time.  If they had been fixed immediately, perhaps the outcry wouldn't have reached this level. I think the non-response has been confused with approval.

>>There are more features that players and builders have found in the game and surely more to come.  These features only make a very good game better, IMO. 

In your opinion, and obviously others

In my opinion, difficult mansions can be built without these quirks. Unintended features like this serve as hidden barriers that cause players to think a mansion is broken and abandon it in frustration, when it doesn't conform to the known game rules. They can also cause additional headaches to mansion builders who are not aware of them, when it allows players to side-step a carefully planned puzzle.

>>The ladder jump feature only adds to the building and playing possibilities of the game. 

It does. Sure. But it also sets up seemingly impossible situations that they player isn't prepared for since none of the included mansions or tutorial prepares them for it. It either forces them to try impossible things (or to get more involved with the forums) in order to discover the

secret knowledge

necessary to solve certain games. 

>>I surely hope Vern will not remove it from the classic game since that would ruin about 30% of all custom mansions.

I sincerely doubt he will considering its widespread use.

>>I forgot:  Rob, your

no way back

argument is a poor one for many reasons:

OK.

>>1. It is totally up to the builder whether or not the player can go from A to B and back again.

It is, and there are existing mechanisms that are documented and function without this trick. Part of my problem is with the first part A to B. In the case of builders who don't know about the trick, the player is the one who can go in a direction that the builder can't anticipate.

>>2. While you usually cannot go back at the same ladder you jumped from the builder can arrange another way back.

True enough.

>>3. It is easy to construct a ladder WITHOUT any ladderjump in a way that you CANNOT go back the same ladder.

Sure. They use commonly understood and documented ways that should be clear to the player.

>>4. It is easy to construct many types of situations where you can go from A to B but not go back without any ladderjumps involved.

Fine. So why not use those other approaches instead?

With it gone, there would be one less. At least those other situations would be using understood and documented features that a player would be aware of from the beginning.

If you see any pattern to my answers it should be this: While I'm not in love with the

no way back

scenarios, I know that they are a fact of life - more to the point, a part of the game, and I accept that.

The exploit exists as part of the

secret knowledge

shared by folks who have played the game (and many custom mansions) for a long time. In that context, I dislike it. I have played the game a long time, I still don't care for it.

If it's going to remain in the game, then I think at the very least, it should be included in the tutorial (possibly an advanced section), and established as a real feature, rather than live in the shadows.