Beta 2: The caves and the castle

[Semi-Native]

363F293F37375E0 wrote: [quote author=7666717878140 link=1271354252/9#9 date=1271784373][quote author=727F60777278777A77160 link=1271354252/6#6 date=1271770639]Easy

10087 and 10090 – Jack can't reach either of these keys.

Yes, he can - in BOTH instances!  Just let Jack take a few armlifts!  This feature has been known for quite a time now.
What is an

Arm Lift Feature

and how does one do it?
You hold the down arrow until Jack starts doing push-ups. Then he can snag those keys.

[brell]

4B4754414E43544F52471012260 wrote: NORMAL - Room 11678

Jack dies and reappered at the point you'll see in the picture: there was no more platform so he can't go back... :o

This is NOT the latest version of TC&TC normal - this has been fixed in the version I sent to Vern last weekend.

EDIT: Version 2 is availbale here. Vern has not yet posted a later version. The version you were playing is outdated, however.

[RobSeegel]

(Extremely) HARD

So hard it should be in a new category - FIENDISH maybe. I spent a few days making my way through this one. In the end I cheated twice to get through. Once, just by looking at a room in the Level builder (11278) - no modifications made, and once to make the last jump hard instead of nearly impossible (10680). I was almost tempted to do something in Room 10290, but resisted... barely. I was all set to make the bat platform go down rather than up, when I managed to make the jump from the vanishing platform to the fast one. I was highly frustrated by this move.

I discovered that I missed a whole series of rooms on my successful run, but went back and played them from the level builder. I liked the design of this section, but I thought there were a few cheap deaths. (Snake in 10884). Areas where I couldn't see where there was ground to walk on (110844, 11284).

In a few places it crosses the line (for me, anyway) of being too difficult to be fun.

Some room-specific comments below:

11876 - Significant problem here! I can crash the game from this room, and can do it consistently and easily. Ride up the platform, and when you're jumping for the ledge on the left with the purple door, purposely mis-time your jump so you miss it, and let Jack fall downward towards the left side. He never lands because the game crashes! (I've already sent the resulting dump to Vern via email)

11278 - Didn't particularly care for the section in the upper right where I couldn't see where Jack was. That seemed a bit too stacked against the player. I edged very carefully, yet still lost track of Jack.

Also, the hidden key in this level is too obscure. Yes, I know it's a hard level, but I still think that keys shouldn't be hidden without some sort of clue. I had gotten here without any red keys left so finding the extra key would have been pretty important. I think there should have at least been a message about it.

12081 - OK, that was one of the most challenging save points to get to that I've played so far. The room itself was easy... it was all the rooms leading up to that was tough. You might consider either adding some more gold or adding another save point.

10680 - That bat platform could be moved just a hair to the right without completely removing the difficulty from this room. I burned through about a dozen Jacks trying to make that last jump (and a few making the others, but it was the last one that was the killer.)

10480 - Bat platform disappeared when I died (on return trip). Was that supposed to happen? I guess it doesn't matter in any case, since it's possible to get down without it.

10484 - Does the blue bat platform need a blocker to prevent it from going into the ceiling?

10280 - I think that the number of trolls should be reduced or there should be a few more shields scattered around in some of the previous screens. The trolls movements are unpredictable enough that having them run (mostly) out of sight seems like cheap deaths. Personally, I have little patience for rooms where the majority of the obstacles cannot be seen... (Dark rooms are an exception) Then again, I may have simply gotten lucky on this screen - most of the trolls exited the room through the ladder in the upper left. They must have been intimidated... or something. Not sure if this was intended. If so, then all that's required for this room is to wait, which isn't as bad as I thought (unless you're going for some sort of fastest time... and good luck with that in *this* mansion)

10084 - I really notice a slow down after a short time on screens where snow is falling. It's not immediate, but there's definitely a cumulative effect.

10290 - Jumping onto that fast moving platform from the vanishing block was a little over the top in terms of difficulty - at least for me. It crossed the line into fiendishly hard.

10089 - Cheap death entering room from right, bottom floor.

10090 - Considering the rooms around this area, you could have reasonably had a save point in this room.

10884 - How is snake on platform avoidable? Cheap death?

[brell]

093439083E3E3C3E375B0 wrote: (Extremely) HARD

So hard it should be in a new category - FIENDISH maybe. I spent a few days making my way through this one. In the end I cheated twice to get through. Once, just by looking at a room in the Level builder (11278) - no modifications made, and once to make the last jump hard instead of nearly impossible (10680). I was almost tempted to do something in Room 10290, but resisted... barely. I was all set to make the bat platform go down rather than up, when I managed to make the jump from the vanishing platform to the fast one. I was highly frustrated by this move.

I discovered that I missed a whole series of rooms on my successful run, but went back and played them from the level builder. I liked the design of this section, but I thought there were a few cheap deaths. (Snake in 10884). Areas where I couldn't see where there was ground to walk on (110844, 11284).

In a few places it crosses the line (for me, anyway) of being too difficult to be fun.

Dear Rob,
thank you for playing and testing my hard version of TC&TC. I am aware that you are not the only one complaining about how difficult this mansion is. There is, however, nothing in this mansion that has not become familiar to the MM community over the years (apart from the novalties in the MM sequel itself, of course). I will, however, make a few changes to the mansion where necessary due to overall playability, a few very hard jumps and, perhaps, I will throw in a few more gold or even an extra saving point.

Now to your comments:

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote:
Some room-specific comments below:

11876 - Significant problem here! I can crash the game from this room, and can do it consistently and easily. Ride up the platform, and when you're jumping for the ledge on the left with the purple door, purposely mis-time your jump so you miss it, and let Jack fall downward towards the left side. He never lands because the game crashes! (I've already sent the resulting dump to Vern via email)

I'm sorry but I cannot reproduce this. Anyway, this is something Vern must fix.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote:
11278 - Didn't particularly care for the section in the upper right where I couldn't see where Jack was. That seemed a bit too stacked against the player. I edged very carefully, yet still lost track of Jack.

This is just a standard hidden area and a shortcut for Jack into this room if he forgot to pull the lever in the room above.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: Also, the hidden key in this level is too obscure. Yes, I know it's a hard level, but I still think that keys shouldn't be hidden without some sort of clue. I had gotten here without any red keys left so finding the extra key would have been pretty important. I think there should have at least been a message about it.

But there IS a clue! When you get the 2 gold coins in the upper left you hear a sound indicating that something has appeared somewhere. And at that point there are not many places left to check - except the hidden area in the upper right - or behind the waterfall.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 12081 - OK, that was one of the most challenging save points to get to that I've played so far. The room itself was easy... it was all the rooms leading up to that was tough. You might consider either adding some more gold or adding another save point.

Yes, I am thinking about it - but I will not change it yet.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10680 - That bat platform could be moved just a hair to the right without completely removing the difficulty from this room. I burned through about a dozen Jacks trying to make that last jump (and a few making the others, but it was the last one that was the killer.)

I agree with you on this room and I've made it a bit easier.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10480 - Bat platform disappeared when I died (on return trip). Was that supposed to happen? I guess it doesn't matter in any case, since it's possible to get down without it.

This didn't happen to me and as you say it doesn't really matter.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10484 - Does the blue bat platform need a blocker to prevent it from going into the ceiling?

Yes, it does, thank you.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10280 - I think that the number of trolls should be reduced or there should be a few more shields scattered around in some of the previous screens. The trolls movements are unpredictable enough that having them run (mostly) out of sight seems like cheap deaths. Personally, I have little patience for rooms where the majority of the obstacles cannot be seen... (Dark rooms are an exception) Then again, I may have simply gotten lucky on this screen - most of the trolls exited the room through the ladder in the upper left. They must have been intimidated... or something. Not sure if this was intended. If so, then all that's required for this room is to wait, which isn't as bad as I thought (unless you're going for some sort of fastest time... and good luck with that in *this* mansion)

Yes, it is a question of patience

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10084 - I really notice a slow down after a short time on screens where snow is falling. It's not immediate, but there's definitely a cumulative effect.

Nothing I can do about that except skipping the snow which I won't do.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10290 - Jumping onto that fast moving platform from the vanishing block was a little over the top in terms of difficulty - at least for me. It crossed the line into fiendishly hard.

Why would you want to jump from the vanishing block to the fast moving platform?

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10089 - Cheap death entering room from right, bottom floor.

Fixed

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10090 - Considering the rooms around this area, you could have reasonably had a save point in this room.

I will consider that.

4B767B4A7C7C7E7C75190 wrote: 10884 - How is snake on platform avoidable? Cheap death?

Please read the sign. The snake is NOT a cheap death!

[RobSeegel]

thank you for playing and testing my hard version of TC&TC.

Thank you for all the time you've obviously spent on it, and making it available. While i may have thought that it was a bit too hard for me in places, and that I did get frustrated, there's undoubtedly plenty of players far better, who are probably going to really enjoy this mansion. I can't speak for those players, though, just myself.

Complaint has such a negative connotation. ;-). I prefer to think of it as providing constructive feedback. It's all about perception, and consideration of difficulty is incredibly subjective. My perception is likely to be quite different from someone who has spent lots of painstaking time, carefully creating each room in the mansion. You know all of what is possible and what isn't within your mansion. I didn't. I try to avoid making value assessments, and try to offer suggestions where I have some, but I have no expectation that any opinion I offer will be acted upon in any way. My feedback is freely offered and its yours to consider or ignore as you decide. My hope is that it provides at least a little value .

I'm sorry but I cannot reproduce this.

Darn. I never thought this had anything to do with you. For all I know, Vern may not even be able to do anything about it, but I did send him a more detailed email about it before I posted this. I was hoping that someone else might be able to get the same result, which I have no trouble duplicating. It may even be something to do with the configuration of my own machine. It's impossible to account for all environments and configurations.

But there IS a clue!  When you get the 2 gold coins in the upper left you hear a sound indicating that something has appeared somewhere.  And at that point there are not many places left to check - except the hidden area in the upper right - or behind the waterfall.

This is just my own personal prejudice about keys being hidden out of sight, with  or without a tone (Incidentally, I normally disable the sound while playing, or play with my own playlist in the background, so this sort of clue is often lost on me, as it would be with someone with a hearing disability. I believe that there should be some visual cue as well). There is at least one other room, possibly others where keys are hidden. It's a perfectly legitimate way of constructing a room, but it's always been a pet peeve of mine.

Things that I think would have been better:

- Briefly seeing the key pop out of the air above the water, and fall out of sight somewhere behind the rocks.
- See some sort of visual cue to accompany the audio one
- Have there be some sort of sign by the nearest red door past this area that makes some oblique reference to the waterfall.
- Being able to see the key openly once the trigger condition has been met.

Anyway... this is basically just a difference of opinion. It's not right or wrong.

Yes, I am thinking about it - but I will not change it yet.

The more I think about it, the more I think you shouldn't. I keep these notes as I encounter each room, and I don't always go back and review every comment. Especially if I have a lot of comments... or if the mansion is especially difficult. However, I played the section leading up the first save point a lot (more than I care to think about). I think there are other portions of the mansion that would benefit more from an additional save point or treasure. Besides, if a player is unable to get to that first save point, it's not as if the mansion gets easier from there.

Nothing I can do about that except skipping the snow which I won't do.

I probably should have left this comment out. There was another mansion I played where the effect was worse. I left it mostly as a note for myself to remind me to go back and look at the room closer. It turns out that you can alter the frequency in which the snow falls and other details, but I don't really think it's necessary here. I meant to point out that the snow appears not to be accumulating across all of the merlons in the battlement, probably due to a layering issue. Look at the two in the middle (In front of the gargoyle) No snow appears to gather on top, but behind. Also, no snow gathers in the crenel immediately to the right of them (the one in front of the knight). It's a small thing for a room that players don't spend much time in, but I thought I'd point it out.

Why would you want to jump from the vanishing block to the fast moving platform?

This was my mistake - I must have been tired when I wrote that. You're absolutely right. Sorry about that.

Please read the sign.  The snake is NOT a cheap death!

I did read the sign - In fact I read ALL the signs I came across (I deleted all my comments specifically about the signs.) but it wasn't clear what it was referring to... so many ways of dying on this set of rooms. I did realize even after I posted it that I could cause the platform with the snake to move, but death still appears to be the price of getting the additional gold coins across the top of the screen (not worth it) if you don't have a shield, and they are a rare commodity in this mansion. You're right though, one doesn't have to get the gold coins (or even finish this particular room) to get to the end, so it was not a cheap death.

Anyway, thanks again for the challenging mansion. Perhaps I'll try it again at some later point - especially those sections I missed the first time.

[brell]

063B36073131333138540 wrote:
But there IS a clue!  When you get the 2 gold coins in the upper left you hear a sound indicating that something has appeared somewhere.  And at that point there are not many places left to check - except the hidden area in the upper right - or behind the waterfall.

This is just my own personal prejudice about keys being hidden out of sight, with  or without a tone (Incidentally, I normally disable the sound while playing, or play with my own playlist in the background, so this sort of clue is often lost on me, as it would be with someone with a hearing disability. I believe that there should be some visual cue as well). There is at least one other room, possibly others where keys are hidden. It's a perfectly legitimate way of constructing a room, but it's always been a pet peeve of mine.

Things that I think would have been better:

- Briefly seeing the key pop out of the air above the water, and fall out of sight somewhere behind the rocks.
- See some sort of visual cue to accompany the audio one
- Have there be some sort of sign by the nearest red door past this area that makes some oblique reference to the waterfall.
- Being able to see the key openly once the trigger condition has been met.

Anyway... this is basically just a difference of opinion. It's not right or wrong.

Mansion builders have been using sound clues in their mansions from the beginning of MM - but of course they will go unnoticed by those with hearing problems.  I may change this eventually.

063B36073131333138540 wrote:
Please read the sign.  The snake is NOT a cheap death!

I did read the sign - In fact I read ALL the signs I came across (I deleted all my comments specifically about the signs.) but it wasn't clear what it was referring to... so many ways of dying on this set of rooms. I did realize even after I posted it that I could cause the platform with the snake to move, but death still appears to be the price of getting the additional gold coins across the top of the screen (not worth it) if you don't have a shield, and they are a rare commodity in this mansion. You're right though, one doesn't have to get the gold coins (or even finish this particular room) to get to the end, so it was not a cheap death.)

But you CAN get ALL the coins in this room without a shield - and there is no cheap death involved!

Again thanks for your comments.

[RobSeegel]

69796E67670B0 wrote:
But you CAN get ALL the coins in this room without a shield - and there is no cheap death involved!

Fair enough. My mistake, then.

[VernJensen]

FYI, the crashing bug when you jump off a platform and fall into a room below, has been fixed in beta 3.