A resort for retired goldhunters

[brell]

Toybox wrote: [quote author=brell link=1190744915/15#19 date=1191156593]
OK.  Since you've finished the red section without opening that door you know it is not needed to get through but you miss a bit of treasure.

I know that, I just feel so silly to have missed it because it is not even remotely hidden!
Or maybe you should add a BBB to tell Jack not to overlook that door, and a few arrows poining to it as well  
Only if I may

quote

it from you on the BBB 8-)

[Freddy]

aquaMat wrote: ... I always felt I was quite a skilled player ... but there I certainly begin to doubt my abilities ...

I understand what you mean, aquaMat. There has been a time that I also thought from myself that I was a very good player. E.g. by being number 1 on the world high scores list for more than 15 of the original mansions. Till the start of the custom mansions!

Speaking for myself, I prefer to say that I am an

experienced

player (and mansion-designer). What doesn't mean that I am a strong player (or builder). A really strong player is certainly someone like Psychotronic. The very fast way he was able to finish the toughest mansions ever made, was proof enough.

If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are

easy

in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions.

[ryos]

It's been a while since I played a genuinely hard mansion. I'm enjoying this so far; must be my masochistic streak.

So, it seems to me that it's impossible to venture off into the seabottom at the end of the gold path and still return to play other paths. Am I right? You know me and hidden keys; we're not friends. At all.

Of Freddy's list of

extremely hard

mansions, the only one I've beaten is Temple of the Moon. Loved that one! The biggest problem with hard mansions is the difficulty of exploration. You need to be able to look around to know what to do in order to advance, but every room is so hard that you find you need to do your exploration with a tether to the save pedestals. Play with abandon, figure out what you need to do, then reload from the pedestal and do it right.

Fortunately, so far this mansion has proven rather linear (like the spokes of cart wheel are linear), so the challenge is just getting through. Unlike many players (Vern included), I like this style of mansion.

[brell]

Ryos, you can return after the seabottom adventure. Just find the hidden key

[Toybox]

brell wrote:
Only if I may

quote

it from you on the BBB 8-)

Be my guest ;D

Ah yes, when playing yesterday I lost a few Jacks in the sea bottom: once when falling all the way down to the pole, lever and door (this doesn't happen usually), and a few times when climbing down the seaweed, I mean the vines. Somehow I tend to miss the little platform in the room below.

As for the problem I had in the green room (getting down on the ground again): I think I solved it finally :-[

[aquaMat]

brell wrote: Please give examples of:

1. Nasty surprise deaths
2. Unavoidable falls leading to death
3. Creature attacks which lead to unavoidable deaths
4. Sudden cheap deaths

The high speed platform jump is not invented by me.  It has been around since Freddy's MM&M at least.

I do not, any more that other mansion builders, get away with Jack-stucks, half Jack-stucks, cheap deaths or anything like that.  To my best knowledge there are no such things in Arfrg.  My tester reported very few which were all fixed.  So if there are still any JS, HJS, cd etc. around I would certainly like to know about them so I can fix them.

Brell, you wanted me to give a few examples...I give a few below, and those are only of the first few rooms of the 4 paths I tried yet. There might be more examples, but these are the ones I now can remember:

Purple section
1.  Rooms 13498 - 13500:  When jumping from that tiny floor bit (Left middle of room 13499) onto that bit with the purple key in  13498...and you walk back: surprise fall (well....one tends to forget that a jump is needed).
2. Hi-speed platform in 13499: jump to middle floor of 13500 is as good as impossible
3. Entering room 13300 from the left, Jack immediately falls to his death. IMO, that is an unfair, too sudden end of the floor.
4. 13099 to 13100:  walking from moving platform in 13099 to platform in 13100 is impossible

Red section:
5. 13502.....  same situation as in room 13300... surprise fall
6. Ladder room 13505: Room is much fun.... but many unavoidable deaths through ladders that end surprisingly.

Green section:
7. Room 14501: Jumping from left to center platform results in endless deaths due to its hardness
8. Room 14502-14503: Looks like it's possible to jump from last (right) middle floor bit to single floor brick in 14503...but results in many deaths

Blue section:
9. Room 14304: Several deaths because of malfunctioning

semi-ladders

.
10. 13703: Coming from below: rather cheap death thru anavoidable big spider.

That'll do as a few examples. Some of them will be avodable once the player has practised enough.... but you have to consider the player's first attempts too.....  

Still..... I'll be having fun (and much pain too) while learning to master this beast !!     8-)

[aquaMat]

Freddy wrote: If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are

easy

in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions.

Absolutely!!  I wholeheartedly agree....

But still.... I have to say that there is a certain difference between the hardness of - say - ACO and the new ARFRG. The hardness in ACO (at least in most cases) comes from difficult jumps, hard puzzles, nasty creatures etc. but all within the system of a

normally built

logical mansion, whereas the hardest parts in ARFRG are created by pushing masnion design to its limits, with things like ladder jumps, hi-speed platforms, jumps into the void after which you have to land on the tiniest bit of vine ....stuff like that.

And although everyone here knows I'm no stranger to breaking design rules myself and like to pull a few nasty tricks as well, now and then, I always try to avoid unmanageable hardships that could give the impression they were put in just for the sake of it.
And brell comes up with many interesting hard rooms, that are fun to explore and solve and master. I really like his mansion. It's only now and then that he, IMHO, goes a bit too far and includes things that are unfairly hard and are exactly the sort of things other designers are asked to remove from their mansions by the admins prior to release.

[Toybox]

Actually you get used to having to jump into the next room instead of walking there. Or you can jump into the next room, turn back in mid-air and go back where you started from - then take a peek in the map to see if there is a floor at all to support your steps

[brell]

aquaMat wrote: [quote author=brell link=1190744915/15#20 date=1191156901]Please give examples of:

1. Nasty surprise deaths
2. Unavoidable falls leading to death
3. Creature attacks which lead to unavoidable deaths
4. Sudden cheap deaths

The high speed platform jump is not invented by me.  It has been around since Freddy's MM&M at least.

I do not, any more that other mansion builders, get away with Jack-stucks, half Jack-stucks, cheap deaths or anything like that.  To my best knowledge there are no such things in Arfrg.  My tester reported very few which were all fixed.  So if there are still any JS, HJS, cd etc. around I would certainly like to know about them so I can fix them.

Brell, you wanted me to give a few examples...I give a few below, and those are only of the first few rooms of the 4 paths I tried yet. There might be more examples, but these are the ones I now can remember:

Purple section
1.  Rooms 13498 - 13500:  When jumping from that tiny floor bit (Left middle of room 13499) onto that bit with the purple key in  13498...and you walk back: surprise fall (well....one tends to forget that a jump is needed).
2. Hi-speed platform in 13499: jump to middle floor of 13500 is as good as impossible
3. Entering room 13300 from the left, Jack immediately falls to his death. IMO, that is an unfair, too sudden end of the floor.
4. 13099 to 13100:  walking from moving platform in 13099 to platform in 13100 is impossible
1. Well, I cannot help if you forget that a jump is needed. Why not take a look at your map?
2. This is simply WRONG! I have been through at least three mansions with high speed jumps like this. It is just a question of learning how to master it.
3. Do you run into the room or do you take it slowly? I always move with caution when I go from one room to another in a mansion I haven't played before. There has been a debate about this, I know. I can agree that in an easy or a normal mansion it may not be appropriate but I see nothing against it in a mansion that is advertised as hard to VERY hard. Furthermore I have seen this at more than one place in the included map mansions that came with the game.
Anyway, added a map in the room before to warn the player.
4. Yes, WALKING between the two platforms is propably impossible. I haven't been able to do it myself :

aquaMat wrote:
Red section:
5. 13502.....  same situation as in room 13300... surprise fall
6. Ladder room 13505: Room is much fun.... but many unavoidable deaths through ladders that end surprisingly.

5. What happens if you hold down the right arrow key while falling? Map added to warn player
6. Wrong! When Jack lands on a floating platform or climbs up or down, the warning is always that the fake ladders are in L6. Of course a quick thinking is sometimes preferred.

aquaMat wrote:
Green section:
7. Room 14501: Jumping from left to center platform results in endless deaths due to its hardness
8. Room 14502-14503: Looks like it's possible to jump from last (right) middle floor bit to single floor brick in 14503...but results in many deaths

7. What can I say? Patience is a virtue
8. It is just a tough jump. Jack needs to stand on the edge of the brick he is jumping from with his toes outside the brick.

aquaMat wrote:
Blue section:
9. Room 14304: Several deaths because of malfunctioning

semi-ladders

.
10. 13703: Coming from below: rather cheap death thru anavoidable big spider.

9. Why should it lead to deaths? Besides, I've only experienced the bottom ladder

malfunctioning

but there is a trick to

repair

the malfunction.
10. The spider is unavoidable. The death is not. You can for example wait in the ladder for the spider to go up again.

[brell]

aquaMat wrote: [quote author=Freddy link=1190744915/30#31 date=1191191154]If someone really wants to find out if he/she is a really good player, in my opinion a visit at ACO, HoW, TotM and/or MMaM will give a good valuation of one's skill. And now maybe ARfRG as well. But don't know yet. Anyway, the 8 original hard mansions are

easy

in comparison with those 4 mentioned custom mansions.

Absolutely!!  I wholeheartedly agree....

But still.... I have to say that there is a certain difference between the hardness of - say - ACO and the new ARFRG. The hardness in ACO (at least in most cases) comes from difficult jumps, hard puzzles, nasty creatures etc. but all within the system of a

normally built

logical mansion, whereas the hardest parts in ARFRG are created by pushing masnion design to its limits, with things like ladder jumps, hi-speed platforms, jumps into the void after which you have to land on the tiniest bit of vine ....stuff like that.
Hmm... pushing to the limits...  exactly what Psychotronic said about Freddy's MM&M on the old boards.
Ladderjumps have been around since MM&M.  Very easy when you know how to.
High speed platforms have appeared in at least three other mansions.
Jumps into the void ...  hmmm...  I remember such a thing in Chateau de Medusa hard (a fall actually, but into the void without any warning).  And if you are referring to the red section, then I can assure you that no

jump

is needed.

aquaMat wrote: And although everyone here knows I'm no stranger to breaking design rules myself and like to pull a few nasty tricks as well, now and then, I always try to avoid unmanageable hardships that could give the impression they were put in just for the sake of it.

It all depends on how hard you want your mansion to be.  There is a difference between

hardiness

and

unfairness

.  There is nothing unmanageable in Arfrg.

aquaMat wrote: And brell comes up with many interesting hard rooms, that are fun to explore and solve and master. I really like his mansion. It's only now and then that he, IMHO, goes a bit too far and includes things that are unfairly hard and are exactly the sort of things other designers are asked to remove from their mansions by the admins prior to release.

Tell me aquaMat, are you saying I am abusing my position as an admin of the boards?  Can you please give me an example of things included in Arfrg that you have been asked to remove from one of your mansion?  I had the pleasure of testing DoD.  I do not recall anything similar I asked you to remove.  And I have the emails between us.

A further point: As an admin I have never asked anyone to change anything in a mansion prior to a release. When a builder sends me a tested mansion I upload it.

The bottom line is:

My Arfrg is advertised as a hard to VERY hard mansion.  There is NOTHING unfair in it but there are many hard and VERY hard rooms/tricks etc.  And also a handful of tricks that look hard but are not.