Beta 4: Dr. Demented's Den

[RobSeegel]

First, there is no need to reply individually to each item here. Reply only if you have questions and need clarification, or have already fixed something.

Understood, but it serves as a sort of checklist for me, and potentially for other testers, who may be looking to see if something mentioned has been fixed. I know that when testing I would sometimes go through the responses when I was preparing to submit a list of issues. Tell you what, I'll edit out any praise, and trim things down as much as possible. It's still long, but I'm OK with that. I feel better responding to various points regardless of whether you respond back. Besides, I never edit something like that in the web browser - I always do that in a separate editor and copy/paste it. Too much frustration otherwise. This mansion is turning into more of a collaborative thing, which I'm grateful for.

15896 - Lower portion of bricks above pillars need to be in layer 6. (Jack can jump and have his head poke through.) Fixed - yeah I don't like this sort of thing, either.

15897 - Look into music ID here. I had a weird error message regarding music when entering this room the 2nd time. Noted. I'm going to be going through every screen to make music decisions when everything else has been done. What's been happening I think is that I go for the hot key to go to a different room, and accidentally hit the key that brings up the room details. The first field is the music field, and I've already started typing the room number and hit return. This all happens very quickly. Before I realize what's happened I've messed up the music for a room.

15897 - My preference would be to not have as many things appearing out of thin air. In this case, the bat platform going up. Or at a bare minimum, make the trigger's action permanent, so once visible, it stays visible.

I've actually established a convention within this mansion. Did you see the green tile with the bat symbol? I've linked the blue tile with the blue bat platform,
and the green with the gray/black platform (since i don't have a gray block with the bat picture). Every time I have a trigger that makes a bat platform appear out of nowhere, there will be such a square. The problem with platforms is sometimes they can get in the way of other things. I think there's often a time and a place where it makes sense for the bat platforms to stick around, but so long as you have an obvious way of triggering them and you stay consistent, then it usually doesn't matter if they're always there or not.

15697 - It's difficult, but possible to jump from the falling-platform on the upper-left to the area to the right. I'm guessing that's not intended. Nope, fixed with a ladder that can't be reached from the bottom.

15697 - Because the bricks the skeleton spider is walking on are in layer 6, his feet aren't visible -- the pseudo-3D brick fringe covers them. The bouncing eyeballs look weird too. Yep, I

discovered

that functionality somewhat late in the process - at about area 4 or 5, and have been scrambling to go back in and fix it everwhere I see it. Area 1 was probably the worst when it came to things like that. I'm constantly looking for areas like that to fix.

15696 - For the top-left moving platform that appears out of thin air in this room… I'd make it a black bat platform. Somehow this conveys to me that it might move between rooms. Other brick-looking platforms don't convey this to me for some reason.

The main reason it was done this way was one of functionality. I wanted to platform to head off in one direction and suddenly change direction. Black platforms don't change direction, which ruled them out. I initially didn't want two platforms where one could have done everything - it gets awkward. I didn't want to blue, because there are times when I think it's really clunky that Jack has to jump to make it go off in a different direction - this was one of those times. Also, I didn't want the platform to be able to retrace its pathway.

Secondly, players looking to get onto the top ledge area in 15896 will be totally lost, since there are no visual clues in 15696

Well, I *did* intend for this key to be fairly hard to get to. Keep in mind, this is a non-critical pathway. What I probably needed to do for this would have been to ensure that the red trapdoor was visible at the very least. I was also hoping that the coins on the upper portions, might be enough to entice some players (esp. those looking to get everything). I also thought that the fact that a platform in the next room to the left made it easy to get to the top, would have been a clue that there was something up top that was worthwhile to get. Players grabbing the coins would have found the platform.

The general philosophy that guided these sorts of things was that so long as they weren't on a critical pathway (one required to get to the end) it was OK. I didn't really WANT everything to be instantly obvious so that on the first time through a player was able to end up with 100% without having to work for it. That being said, I still didn't want them to be impossible. I did want the players who made it through to be a bit disappointed when there was a small bonus room or two that they couldn't access because they missed something or wind up with 60% secrets (you know, it wasn't until I'd started playing custom mansion in the first game that I realized the percentage had NOTHING to do with the treasure that was found. Throughout the included mansions I had no idea what it was associated with. At first I thought it was the percentage of treasure found.)

But in any case, one thing that does definitely need changing is once you've ridden it down into 15896, if you then mess up on the gray falling platforms and fall into the *lower area* of this room (very easy to do if you time the jumps wrong vs. the eyeball), you'll have to go *all the way back* which is a big pain.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with this, and did fix this right away with something that wasn't hidden. If someone chooses to ignore the lever I've added, then they deserve to walk back.

15895 - Okay, yeah, the eyeball in this room is definitely very hard to avoid.

But fair game. I tried it again and again to see if it might be too unreasonable. I really don't think it is. It isn't trivial, but not too difficult. Also, Jack does get a shield on the way down to this area. This coupled with the fact that he now has an easy way to get back to the platform if he wants makes me hesitant to change this. I already removed a spider from the other side. ;-).

16095 - Sign's wording

And ensure that key is secured above ground

seems to be missing a word or something. you were right. Fixed.

16693 - Weird graphical glitches if Jack jumpes in the middle-left area. Some parts are above him in layer 6, other parts (the rounded parts) are not. fixed.

16693 - Maybe sign should be changed to

Good thing I put an emergency landern down here.

versus

packed

makes it sound like Jack already had one on his person when he came. I know that doesn't make sense, but I read it that way for some reason. I revisited that

sign

. I think you misunderstood it. It was note left behind by Gus for anyone who might have come looking for it. Within this mansion, those signs are almost never really signs.

I really wish there was a way of making Jack glow or have a question mark be displayed over him when he passes by an invisible sign. This would make it possible for the player to know he could interact with something, and open the way for there to be sprites or other graphics that could be used (instead or alongside an invisible sign) such as a

scroll

or

book

sprite, or know that he could

talk

to someone. You may have missed the fact that you could

talk

to the gargoyle standing by the red doors for precisely this reason.

16893 - 4th paragraph -- Sign is missing a quote mark after

he continues,

to resume the quotation. Also, 3rd paragraph, i'd put a period after

the Goblin sighs

and start a new sentence (capitalize) for the next quote. Fixed

16895 - Cheap death. I walk into snake before I can see it an react. Nothing should be within 4 squares of a room's entrance, at a minimum. OK, because it wasn't moving and didn't really seem *that* close, I didn't really see it as a cheap death, but I didn't really feel strongly about it anyways. It's gone.

16896 - Yeah, this'll need a bit of changing.

I revised it slightly. There is now a fixed platform that you take to get to this room (no bat platform), and a sign with a line that gives you some idea of what must be done. Again, this is a non-critical pathway. I revised the last message you get from

Gus

to explain a bit about the key

etching

in the cavern.

A. There are times, when part of the challenge is figuring out what must be done. The coins are a hint of where to go next. If someone gets to the next room over (without a yellow key) by navigating through vines they will see a yellow key down there seemingly out of reach. However, for this early on in the game, I think it's a bit early to not throw out at least a hint. So, I agree, but in dealing with absolutes, I disagree that a clear goal should be clear the instant a player walks in a room (esp. in a hard mansion). In MM2, there may be the goal of the moment because of triggers primarily. I tend to see it as a fundamental game changer from the first game. Having said that, it's your game, so of *course* I'll change it to be anyway you want.

B) The platforms are just too random. which platforms would those be? There's absolutely nothing random in this room at all. They platforms follow a very fixed pathway, at the same speeds. The falling platforms (which I ignorantly made switches early on) at placed where an accidental jump want allow a player to inadvertently hit a trigger unless they know they're there. There is at least one fixed spot now, but as for the others you should be able to plan and jump accordingly for the others. The thing that makes them seem random perhaps is all the motion, the fact that there's two rings of platforms (one clockwise, one counterclockwise). This is a deliberate move to overwhelm your brain with info and serve as a distraction. It's what makes it Hard. I could possibly slow them down a bit more, but I think that would have a side effect of making it more difficult to find a safe landing with the falling platforms.

C) The triggers need to be permanent! I died and re-appeared in the previous room, and when I came back, all the falling platforms I had gotten to appear thus far had disappeared. Had I not been testing, I would've instantly turned around and given up.

I sort of fixed this by creating a fixed way of getting into this room. This way, when you die, you will not be sent back to another room. I think that's important for this room. Other than that I don't really see that it matters one way or another whether these platforms are permanent or not - though I'll probably make the blue platform (which would have been black, but black platforms can't change directions) permanent. Once you have been through this room once there is never any reason to go back through it. Unless you want to practice, that is - have you ever done that in a mansion with a challenging spot? I have ;-)

16697 - Jump on the vine, then jump to the room to the left... Please investigate if it's still like that, because I'm mystified, I went there and went to one of the layers to cut the entire vine (so I could see what bits were left behind), and it came away clean with no remnants.

16897 - Very disappointed that I have no blue key yet and therefore can't access the save point yet. Yeah... looking back over things, I can understand. There is one you would have found had you taken the route to the surface. I've moved that save point one room closer so that you'll be able to see it from the room with the lantern. You could always head up to the save point after getting the red keys, and then return and try for the yellow key. That sort of decision with backtracking is fairly common in this mansion.

There used to be a save point in that upper courtyard area in the same room where you found the purple key. That was the one I removed. There is also a Save point hidden behind one of the yellow doors. (a side room that is obvious later in the mansion.)

16695 - Putting the grass at the top of the vines in layer 6 doesn't work, because it goes over Jack's head, but the mud bricks go under his head. removed it. I didn't really care for it much anyway.

Okay, BIG QUESTION: The main

problem

I have with this whole

underground troll

section is that I got here via *secret*. Well, more or less. That room with the 3 trolls you drop into the lava… that's the entrance to this area. Plus then you have to navigate a dark room with coins over vines, which is also very much a

I'm going through a secret area

type thing. But then you hit an unexpected pole, and are dropped into this HUGE area, when you're expecting only a small one-room secret area.

OK, this is probably the most difficult comment to address of anything you said, and one that floored me. The basic idea had been that this room was the last place Gus had been seen, somehow he had vanished. I had removed one dark room, so I thought, huh - maybe I'll add another dark room here. It's here that I got manipulative, and tricked the player into

falling

(at one time, it truly *was* falling) into another dark area. I still like the disorienting nature of falling through darkness and landing in a dark area. Maybe that's wrong, but it added a sense of confusion that I really liked. the problem was I didn't want the player to be instantly at excessive risk.

I thought long and hard about this, and I realized that you're right. It's excessive for a critical pathway, and I got a bit carried away. What I'm going to do is revamp the dark room. It will be completely redone. No darkness. It will be a deliberate choice to go down the pole. Also, the room with the three trolls had already been modified so you can see the other exit in this room. I just have to come up with a better

bridging

concept for it. I plan to leave the darkness once on the pole.

16696 - The 2 spiders to the right of this room kicked my butt. I died on both of them! The version you played may have been before a fix where I slowed them a little and gave them a larger track to go back and forth in. They run at varying speeds so it should simple be a matter of waiting for their tracks to converge. Incidentally, at this part of the game the only way in or out of the room is through the vine, or from below. The pathway below is behind a grey door that is opened from one side only.

16695 - If you get on the lower-left vine here and drop down and push left quickly while falling, you can land in the room below without dying. But that's not a big deal -- you can get here easily via the middle vine. I guess I'd prefer being able to drop straight down and live. Unintended as you guessed. If I changed it would be so that it was deadly. I'll leave it for now.

16694 - It's a little weird that walking off the ledge at the bottom-right of this room kills you, but maybe there's nothing that can be done about that without making the design less cool. I'd be willing to entertain other options here. It was really just intended as a way of making the shield a *little* more interesting to get to, but I could see cutting it, the small fixed land mass, vine, and shield out.

16893 - Okay, LOL. This door puzzle is definitely way too hard!

I revised this. I believe it's much easier than it was before, without be too much easier (and I was VERY tempted to put the hanging spider back in the room where Jack was pulled the lever. Take a look and tell me what you think.

When I've run into custom mansions with something like this before. I will sometimes make notes to help me navigate through. Now that I think about it, that's a lot to ask for something on a critical pathway in an included mansion.

16694 - The

lie down to get a coin

trick is something reserved for custom mansions only. Don't do it in built-in mansions. and completely unintentional. It's gone.

16494 - What's a DMAIL? A D[en] Mail. Like an email for purposes of communicating something from someone else's perspective. The

satchel

that Jack now

has

from the Troll adventure, is potentially stuffed with notes, dmails, etc. That serve/will serve as the main way of providing hints or explaining various things, or simply adding a little atmosphere throughout the mansion. The idea being that signs are rarely signs. More often than not, they are

places

where Jack pauses to look in his satchel for assistance.