Beta 4: Dr. Demented's Den

[RobSeegel]

Semi-native: Thanks for the info, though I'm not sure it applies for me. In my version, there is no blue key there, and um... no bat platform either. It's a little different, though the room does look similar at first glance.  Jack will have extra slots by this point. He gets a backpack at the end (or at least first time through) the first area.

Jack will also have other opportunities to use up shields without going back up. I'll keep the comment in mind for when I do some full end-to-end testing tomorrow.

My goal was to provide lots of surprises for folks who went through the first two levels without creating a completely new mansion.

[Semi-Native]

Okay, Rob, thanks. I didn't know what changes you've made, so I thought I'd mention it.

Looking forward to your version.
8-)

[RobSeegel]

I've attached a first cut of Dr. Demented's Den - Hard. At this point I'm still adding/filling in some BBBs, adjusting music, and going back over each room to fix problems. It seems like I find small things each time through.

I'm interested about a great many things:
- Jack Stucks,
- Unavoidable Deaths (as opposed to easy Deaths)
- Layering issues

I'm also interested in the following things, though I realize that it's going to be incredibly subjective:

- Difficulty level
- Frustration level

If you see something that you feel is too hard, I'd appreciate suggestions to fixing it. In most cases I'm going to be looking for a small tweak that makes it a little easier without making it too much easier.  My recommendation would be to note something that you feel is too hard, then come back to it later and try it again a few times in the Builder.

Basic Mansion info:

171 rooms - 85 new rooms, most of the others have been modified.

5 main areas, plus the vault which is a (mostly) non-deadly final area.

Each area should have:
  - three yellow keys
  - two yellow doors
  - one blue key
  - one green key
  - any number of purple and red keys
 
I followed Vern's lead in the first two mansions. Yellow keys are to treasure stashes (and most of the

Secrets

) in the game. I also used the other keys for very specific purposes (except for the vault).

There are 5 bonus yellow keys for the vault. In many places, obtaining the yellow keys will be unusually difficult. You do not need any yellow keys to finish the game. Though it may help - since many yellow doors hide save points. (these save points help counter the difficulty of getting the yellow keys).

Note: deleted attachment - newer version below

[Semi-Native]

Okay, I'm already stumped. I've been all over the beginning few rooms and can't find the switch to change the gold/silver blocks so I can get down below. I need a hint please.

[RobSeegel]

ack! I'm sorry about that! That wasn't supposed to be there still. One of the issues I'm running into is one of versioning. At the moment I have 6 dated versions. At one point, I was considering putting that in place to prevent players from going down there before they wandered a bit further to the right.

In the editor, take those blocks out, please. I'll upload another one without that as soon as I get home. This way if you find other issues (you probably will). then I can address those as well.

I will also put starting points to various sections that you can't start from without any keys for each area and work from point on, if one area becomes impassable for whatever reason. The way the mansion is setup each area must be gone through individually, and then certain areas have to be revisited again before hitting the vault.

The vault, as an area can also be done without any keys. Though there are five bonus rooms that each require a yellow key.

[RobSeegel]

All right, here's another zip without those blocks. I would suggest, given the size, that if there is one section that is completely unplayable. Then you could always open one of the other sections. Although there are scattered rooms that are fairly tough in all sections, I think that generally the overall difficulty increases as you progress.

Overall, for hard mansions I tend to favor mansions that use lots of non-degrading obstacles. A creature can only kill Jack once, a zapper or difficult jump can torment Jack forever.

AREAS
1: 15895
2: 15899
3: 15901
4: 15904
5: 16308
6: 15910 (VAULT)

Each of these areas could be played in isolation of the others - that was the intent anyway, and probably makes the mansion slightly less difficult as a result. The final challenge before hitting the vault unfortunately can't be played this way. Initially, I have no preference on where one starts testing.

Note: deleted attachment - newer version below

[RobSeegel]

Incidentally, from this point on, I'll also post a change list that details every modification to every room that's made to assist with testing whenever I send out an updated mansion. At least until Vern pulls the plug on this experiment (sorry for taking so long with this Vern). If nothing else, maybe this can be an additional custom mansion.

[RobSeegel]

Some more minor mods to Area 1:

15898
* Fixed 6-level layering issues

16095
* Fixed 6-level layering issue

16294
* Room was not supposed to be dark, not sure why it was switched. removed the darkness.

16296
* Added BBB.

16494
* Added BBB.

16693
* Fixed some layering issues

[Wingy]

Hi Rob,

I went through the first bit of your version of Dr. D's Den Hard. It was really cool, lots of intuitive ideas.

Here are my comments. Keep in mind you can do want you want and this is just my opinion, so don't worry about much. However, some of my suggestions where things should be this way are the way it should be in a proper custom mansion. (That I know of) There are differences between custom mansions where the designer can do whatever he/she wants, while in the built-in mansions there are guidelines to make it more formal and for the game, etc.

Anyway, I love the storyline with the goblin, really cool!

15695 - Red bird too fast for hard it seems
- Save point too early? (I noticed you have lots of save points. Not sure if it's necessary. Your mansion does seem a bit harder then a normal hard mansion, so perhaps so?)
15696 - Perhaps sync the platforms? They seem a bit sloppy, not offence. (Maybe two slow, two faster?)
15897 - A better hint for a bigger spider? It's really close to that lever there. Maybe have a layer six block gone so you can see its leg?
15896 - Quite hard to get the timing here right to get across. I would suggest dropping the skull spider.
16098 - Your ladders seem incomplete. There are no tops.
16097 - Your vines seem incomplete. There are no bottoms. :o I like this room. Good difficulty for hard.
16096 - Coming from the right the player doesn't have much reaction time stop before falling in the lava. I would suggest no lava pit + platform. Maybe just a spider.
16095 - Climb to the top of the vine, there's nothing there, but you can still climb farther then you should…
16094 - The platforms here are really cool, especially the way they go away, but I find it a bit strange for a built-in mansion. I would suggest deleting them and having the ground a continuous zapper beam.
16093 - Maybe it's me, but I must confess I am afraid of the dark (in MM). This room there is way too many ways for the player to die it seems and only one way to really win -- now I picked up the silver coins but died by dropping from the vine above it (the one on the extreme left) and could never know there was a platform there… This room seems a bit too hard for hard. I would suggest making it easier.
16293 - Freefalling in a built-in mansion I'm not sure about. I remember hearing from Vern somewhere it's really something from the custom mansion, and the tutorial says

Jack will NEVER be forced to fall more then his height

or something like that. I would suggest a bat platform to bring Jack down safely.
Background tiles in this section seem a bit messy, no offence. I would suggest cleaning them up a bit.
16894 - Too many goblins!
16893 - Too many goblins! Ahh!
16896 - This room is sweet. Having the floor switches suspended like that seems really really strange for a built-in mansion. I would suggest putting some sort of platform under it.
In this section it seems you're missing the heads of way too many vines.
16297 - If you climb up the vine without a head you will run into lava in the next room. (Ouch!) I would suggest putting a top onto that vine.
- The platforms should be above the lava. You can't see them that well.
16494 - Spiders too fast.
16498 - Are you meant to come back later for that red key? Oh I see, you come through that door… cool!!

Nice so far but seems to me it needs a lot of polishing and cleaning up graphic wise, in some of the puzzles and dark rooms. When going through this I get the faintest impression that this is a custom mansion… sorry! It's probably just me. I'm picky, I guess. Basically I think a built in mansion should seem quite formal, right. This mansion is nearly there, but needs a bit of work with making Jack feel safer all the time.

That's all I can get to tonight, I'll come back to you with some more feedback tomorrow, perhaps.

[RobSeegel]

Anthony: no need to constantly say,

no offense

or cushion the blows. I'm fine. I appreciate the feedback, and frankly the apologies add unnecessary noise to the meat of what you're saying. My only concern is that this be made as good as it can possibly be.

It's important not to tiptoe around things. Our goal is the same. I'm going to try and accelerate the process from here on out. I had no idea how brutal learning the ins and outs of mansion building would be while working 10 hour days, while making sure I left time to play with my son. I must have been nuts... oh well.

At any rate, it is what it is, but I'd like to make it better. I'm hoping yours and others' feedback will help. Let's make sure that area 1 is fixed up before moving on. Maybe a day or two in each section will be sufficient to improve things. I had initially responded to everything you'd put, and thought I'd posted it - nope, I'd only previewed it. Bummer - it was a long response, too.

Anyway.. I'm working through your suggestions. I'll respond to each of them.